What are the key events in the end times that the Bible tells us will occur? Find out with guest Noah Hutchings on television’s “Christ in Prophecy.”
Last aired on July 14, 2013.
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Dr. Reagan: What are the key events in the end times that the Bible tells us will occur? Are any of them happening today? And if so does that mean we are near the time of the Lord’s return? Stay tuned for an interview with one of America’s foremost Bible prophecy experts.
Dr. Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus our Blessed Hope and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. We have in store for you what I know is going to be an interesting interview. Our special guest for a second time is the person who I refer to as the Dean of American Bible Prophecy Experts. His name is Noah Hutchings and he is the director of a Bible prophecy ministry in Oklahoma City that is called Southwest Radio Ministries. Noah, welcome back to Christ in Prophecy for a second week.
Pastor Hutchings: Thank you, Brother Reagan.
Dr. Reagan: We really enjoyed talking with last week about your wonderful book, 40 Irrefutable Signs of the Last Generation. But this week we want to shift gears, we don’t want to talk about signs of the times, we want to talk instead about the end time events that the Bible talks about. I am also glad to have with me Nathan Jones who is our Web Minister here at Lamb and Lion. And in that capacity he not only maintains our website but he is on that website everyday ministering to people all around the world, answering their questions and debating with them. He has an interesting, I tell people send him the most difficult questions you possible have, be sure to send them to Nathan. And you get them don’t you Nathan?
Nathan Jones: Yes, sir, quite a lot.
Dr. Reagan: Ok, well Nathan how about you kicking off this interview?
Nathan Jones: Alright sir good to have you back on the program. We are talking about end time events and one of the most controversial end time event seems to be the Rapture of the church. Could you tell us a little about the meaning of the Rapture and why it is controversial?
Pastor Hutchings: Well of course the theories or opinions or teachings about the Rapture, the Rapture as referred to by you and me of course is the, at the end of this dispensation the dead in Christ shall rise and we will go up to meet the Lord. That is the–
Dr. Reagan: He will come for His Church.
Pastor Hutchings: Yes, He comes for His Church. There are several views about that, I’m sure some of them are rather controversial. You know you get into a discussion with those who believe in a Post-Trib you know you can get into some rather interesting dialogue.
Dr. Reagan: Well basically what you are saying is that there is a lot of controversy as to the timing of the Rapture.
Pastor Hutchings: That is true.
Dr. Reagan: Some would say it is going to be before the Tribulation. Some in the middle of the Tribulation. Some near the end of the Tribulation, and some say it’s just all going to be one thing with the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation. What is your view point?
Pastor Hutchings: We are Pre-Trib, meaning that we hold to the Pre-Trib position that when the Church Age has come to an end the Rapture will occur, the translation of the Church to Heaven. Paul wrote to the Christians in Thessalonica they were under great persecution and he told them the hope that would be, the final hope is the Rapture of the Church. The dead in Christ will rise first, and that we will rise to meet the Lord in the air, so shall we ever be with the Lord. If the Church was going through the Tribulation, as some believe, the Post-Trib position, why would Paul try to give them comfort by referring to the coming of Christ?
Dr. Reagan: Yes, yes.
Pastor Hutchings: Because they still have to go through the Tribulation the Church has. So I know there’s a lot of different opinions. But we believe that the Church Age will end, the Christian era will end before the Tribulation begins.
Dr. Reagan: Well as you well know the Bible does not say specifically when the Rapture will occur and that is why there is so much difference of opinion. People can honestly disagree about the timing. So I agree with you, I think that the best inference of the Bible is that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation begins. But what would you say from your viewpoint is the most powerful argument in behalf of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?
Pastor Hutchings: Well you look at the book of Revelation for example the first three chapters concern the Church. I think it is a prophetic history of the Church Age. And then you go into Revelation 4 which is the beginning of the Tribulation period. You go through chapter 19 for the Tribulation period to end. Between chapters 4 and chapters 19 the Church is not mentioned one time. The Christian is not mentioned one time.
Dr. Reagan: There are references to Saints.
Pastor Hutchings: Well there are references to Saints, of course a Saint, we’re all saints. We are all set apart.
Dr. Reagan: Well those would be people saved during the Tribulation.
Pastor Hutchings: Well they will but they will be saved for refusing to take the mark of the Beast, or worship his image.
Dr. Reagan: Yeah.
Pastor Hutchings: But that is not a commandment now.
Dr. Reagan: Yeah.
Pastor Hutchings: So, the Church is not mentioned in the Tribulation setting.
Dr. Reagan: But he mentions it again after the Tribulation.
Pastor Hutchings: After the Tribulation. Sure we read about the 144,000 Israelites will be saved and set apart. There will be Saints in the Tribulation, mean there will be some saved, that is simply what the means. You’re a Saint because you have been sanctified and set apart.
Dr. Reagan: Well I’ve always felt like that one of the major arguments in behalf of a Pre-Tribulational Rapture is imminence. The Bible says that Jesus can come any moment, any moment. But if you don’t believe in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture He cannot come any moment because there are a whole lot of things that have to happen. Like there has to be a temple built in Israel. There has to be the Antichrist. There has to be the Tribulation. The only way that Jesus can come any moment is for you to believe in a Rapture before the Tribulation.
Pastor Hutchings: That is absolutely true. And I think if you study the Pauline Epistles and the messages through the churches I can’t find anywhere in there that Christians are admonished that they have to be careful about not worshipping the mark of the Beast, or about a Tribulation period.
Dr. Reagan: And never are we told to look for the Antichrist; we are told to look for Jesus Christ.
Pastor Hutchings: Look for Jesus Christ, that’s true.
Dr. Reagan: What about you Nathan. What are you feelings about the Pre-Trib Rapture?
Nathan Jones: Well I think the Pre-Trib Rapture makes sense. I mean we are talking about the bride of Christ, the Church, and God loves the bride. Jesus is to marry the bride. Well you don’t bring…I heard Don McGee say this recently, I thought this was great, he says, “You know He’s got most of the bride with Him right now in Heaven, but part of the bride, that’s us, is still on earth. Well you don’t beat up part of your wife for seven years under your own judgments and expect afterwards she’s going to say, ‘Yeah, I’m going to marry you.'” It just doesn’t happen. God wants all of His bride to be with Him during, up in Heaven and protected from His wrath.
Dr. Reagan: Well that raises a good point because you now the idea that the Church, some people say, “Well the Church has to go through the Tribulation to be purified.”
Nathan Jones: Jesus’ blood.
Dr. Reagan: Well if we’re not purified by the blood of Christ.
Nathan Jones: Amen.
Dr. Reagan: We certainly don’t need the Tribulation.
Pastor Hutchings: There is no reason for the Church to go through the Tribulation.
Dr. Reagan: I know, I know.
Pastor Hutchings: Why should we go through the Tribulation?
Nathan Jones: Well I hear people all the time say that the Church needs to be there because otherwise the people won’t hear the Gospel. But there’s many ways that people hear the Gospel during the Tribulation right?
Dr. Reagan: Hey, there is going to be Bibles around all over the place.
Nathan Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Reagan: Plus we’ve got two witnesses in Jerusalem who will be proclaiming the Gospel.
Nathan Jones: Or the Gospel Angel that to me that is the big one, and angel that actually goes to everybody in the Tribulation and shares the Gospel so that no person by the end of the Tribulation is without excuse.
Pastor Hutchings: Israel will go through the Tribulation.
Nathan Jones: Yeah, unfortunately.
Pastor Hutchings: Because of course they today, as I mentioned I’ve been to Israel many, many times. And Israel today less than 1/3 of 1% believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. They still are rejecting. They are taught in school in Israel the schools the children are taught, that would the Messiah have destroyed the Temple? Would the Messiah have collaborated with the Romans to destroy Jerusalem? They say of course not. So Jesus is not the Messiah. And they are looking for the Messiah to come.
Dr. Reagan: As you know as well as I do, as many times you have been to Israel that there are thousands of guides there who have their heads full of Scripture, they have to in order to be qualified as guides. And one day something is going to happen that is going to move that from here, to here.
Dr. Reagan: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy and our interview with Noah Hutchings the Director of Southwest Radio Ministries in Oklahoma City. Noah I want to shift now to another end time event. We have been talking about a very joyful one called the Rapture where Jesus is going to appear and take His Church out of this world both the living and the dead. Let’s talk about one that is not so joyful and that is an event that is called the Tribulation. What in the world is the Tribulation? And how long do you think it will last? What is its purpose? Just talk about the Tribulation for a few minutes.
Pastor Hutchings: Well the Tribulation of course as we have already mentioned comes after the Church is gone. And according to the Scriptures there you go 42 months, and then another 42 months and you have, so we know from the Scripture context there that the Tribulation period will be 7 years. And Jesus said it would be a time such as the world has never seen, or never would see. And we can’t begin to imagine what it is going to be like. Of course that will be when the Antichrist is ruling, and all nations and people are commanded to worship the Antichrist. And we read about those that will not have food, those that will be killed. So it is going to be a time of the most awful period, as Jesus said it would. And of course as we mentioned before there is no reason for the Church to have to go through this period, which we don’t believe it will. But we know that there will be a one-world government, all nations will be under the authority of one person, the Antichrist and his kingdom. And everyone will be commanded to worship this person on the threat of death. And everyone will have to take his mark and number or be killed or they can’t buy or sell. And already we see there is a big controversy now about computer chips. I think it is down in Texas one girl refused to wear a computer chip on her person. The kids wear it, and she said, “Well I don’t believe I should take that because the Bible says I shouldn’t take it.” So it’s going to be a terrible period. We read about the hunger, the wars, the people who will die. We can’t begin to imagine.
Dr. Reagan: What’s the purpose of it?
Pastor Hutchings: The purpose of course I believe one is that Israel will be brought to an understanding that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
Dr. Reagan: They are going to be brought to the end of themselves and finally turn to God.
Pastor Hutchings: We read, “Behold He comes with the clouds and every eye shall see Him, and also they which pierced Him.”
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Pastor Hutchings: “And they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son.”
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Pastor Hutchings: That is not happening today.
Dr. Reagan: What is the purpose for the Gentile nations during the Tribulation? What purpose does God have?
Pastor Hutchings: The Gentile nations of course right now are all separate worshipping different gods. It’s not a world that God intended it to be. It’s a world where Satan is rampant and the world will be prepared through the Tribulation period, the entire world for the coming of Christ. The nations won’t be nations anymore as such. The Lord Jesus Christ will come back and reign for a 1,000 years according to Revelation 20.
Dr. Reagan: Nathan I think you’ve got a really tough question you wanted to ask him about the Tribulation.
Nathan Jones: Well I mean we talk about 21 judgments from God. We talk about most of the earth environmentally being decimated. Most of the human population being decimated in just the seven year time span. If God is a God of love and mercy and justice, why would He do that?
Pastor Hutchings: Well God as you mentioned is not only a God of love, He is a God of justice. And it’s not a matter of God doing this, but man bringing judgment upon himself.
Dr. Reagan: God storing up His judgment.
Pastor Hutchings: Yes. And when this period is over it will be ready for the coming of Christ. The world right now would not want Jesus Christ to come.
Dr. Reagan: One of the things that has always really touched my heart about my study of the Tribulation is that the Bible clearly teaches that even when God pours out His wrath His ultimate purpose is not to punish. His ultimate purpose is to bring people to repentance so that they might be saved. And a lot of people are going to be saved during the Tribulation period because again they are going to be brought to the end of themselves and repent and turn to God.
Pastor Hutchings: That is certainly true. And we read about the 144,000 Jews you know who evidently will be saved and believe and go into all the world as witnesses for Christ. You don’t see that happening today, but it will happen in the Tribulation period.
Dr. Reagan: That’s right. Well it’s just amazing to think that even when God pours out His wrath that’s His purpose, His fundamental purpose is to bring people to repentance.
Nathan Jones: It’s a shame that it takes that much to bring people to finally accept God though.
Dr. Reagan: Well it is but that’s the nature of man that is just the nature of man. Is that sometimes God has to hit you over the head with a 2×4 to get your attention.
Pastor Hutchings: As you can look over the world today here in the United States, 24 hours a day there is Gospel teaching on the radio, on television. The churches are still open. But you know according to the latest statistics church membership and attendance is declining.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Pastor Hutchings: Not only in this country but in other countries. And Christians as Dr. Franklin Graham recently brought out are coming under attack, and what we believe all over the world.
Dr. Reagan: You know every time I think of the Tribulation I think of this verse in Isaiah 26:9, “When the earth experiences the judgments of God the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.”
Pastor Hutchings: Yes.
Dr. Reagan: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy and our interview with Noah Hutchings about end time events.
Nathan Jones: I’m a little down after talking about the Tribulation, maybe we can have a bit of a pick me up here. Let’s talk about another controversial topic and that’s the Millennial Kingdom. Can you tell me a little about what we know about it in the Bible? How long is it going to last? And what is its purpose?
Pastor Hutchings: Well of course we read in Revelation 20 you know, that after Christ comes He will reign upon the throne of David for a 1,000 years. That’s a 1,000 years is a millennium. The Millennium is something that Israel looked forward to in the Old Testament, that the King of David or a lineage of David would come and sit upon the throne of David and there would be peace on the earth for a 1,000 years, a millennium. And the wolf and the animals wouldn’t eat each other. And it would be a peaceful world.
Nathan Jones: I got that on Isaiah 11:6. “The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the goat. The calf, the young lion and the fatling will be together and a child will lead them,” at a time of peace.
Dr. Reagan: Amen.
Nathan Jones: So that to me tells me that we’re not living in the Millennial Kingdom now, right?
Pastor Hutchings: Yes, there are many reasons why we are not living in the Kingdom age.
Nathan Jones: Well share some of those reasons because my kids I wouldn’t send them out to you know stick their hands in the viper nest, or hang out with lions.
Pastor Hutchings: And Jesus is not reigning from Jerusalem.
Nathan Jones: Now some would say He is reigning spiritually. Why do you say He’s not doing that now?
Pastor Hutchings: Well He is to reign literally, upon the throne of David.
Nathan Jones: Ok.
Pastor Hutchings: You read in Matthew and Luke His lineage going all the way back to David that is the reason for that. So He offered that to Israel at His first coming, but Israel said, “We will not have this man reign over us.” And they took Him and crucified Him. So He has to come again to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy that a king from the lineage of David will reign on David’s throne and there will be peace in the world for 1,000 years. And there will be, it will be a wonderful world.
Dr. Reagan: Well I’m glad you mentioned the Old Testament prophecies because many, many people believe the only place in the Bible there is any mention of Jesus reigning is in the book of Revelation. And the Old Testament is full of prophecies about the Messiah reigning over all the world.
Pastor Hutchings: That is true.
Dr. Reagan: Only new information in Revelation 20 is how long the reign is going to be, a 1,000 years.
Pastor Hutchings: Yes, and you read in the book of Hosea about I think a prophecy about Jesus being crucified, and His coming again.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Pastor Hutchings: So, it’s throughout the Old Testament the prophets, and you read in Jeremiah and Ezekiel their mission was to make Israel acceptable so this great King the Lord Jesus would reign.
Nathan Jones: Does that mean the Millennial Kingdom then is only for the Jew? Who lives in the Millennial Kingdom?
Pastor Hutchings: Well we read that all nations will come to Jerusalem to worship the King. So it not only be for Israel it will be for all nations.
Dr. Reagan: Yes, yes. Well you know most churches today, in fact the majority of Protestant churches, plus the Catholic Church teach what’s called Amillennialism which is the belief that we are in the Millennium and we have been in it since the cross and it will continue indefinitely, and that the 1,000 years is just a symbolic term. You know Noah if you take the Bible for what it says, both Old Testament and New Testament just take it for what it says there is no doubt that it teaches that Jesus is coming back to reign for a 1,000 years. But those folks say, “Oh, none of that means what it says. It all has to be spiritualized.” Now talk a little bit about how is the best way to interpret Bible prophecy. Should it be spiritualized, or should we take it for its plain sense meaning?
Pastor Hutchings: Well of course there is a spiritual teaching throughout the Bible and everything that is written. But there is also a literal fulfillment that we have to accept. The prophecies in Isaiah 53 about Jesus, they literally come to pass. And the Jew has been scattered in all the world that literally come to pass. They would return, that is literal. Therefore we have to accept that what the other prophecies in the Bible have a literal fulfillment concerning this coming kingdom that Jesus is to return and establish here on earth at the end of the Tribulation period.
Dr. Reagan: Right. Well I grew up in a church that taught that the Bible means exactly what it says from beginning to end unless it’s talking about the Second Coming of Jesus and it never means what it says.
Pastor Hutchings: Now, a lot of churches as you mentioned believe that the Church inherited all the promises made to Israel. And the Church is modern Israel, and there is no Second Coming because the Church has fulfilled or is fulfilling all the promises.
Nathan Jones: Yet Israel is back in the land again. That means something, it is important.
Pastor Hutchings: That’s an important sign.
Dr. Reagan: Well I tell you. I had a fellow one time put it to me this way and I never forgot this. He said, “If Bible prophecy does not mean what it says, then how can you ever know when it is fulfilled?”
Pastor Hutchings: Yes.
Dr. Reagan: I mean you can’t, I mean if it doesn’t mean what it says you’ll never know whether or not it has been fulfilled. And so people for example the Bible says in the end times there are going to be two witnesses of God who are going to be in Jerusalem in the Tribulation proclaiming the Gospel. Now does that mean what it says? Well Amillennialists say, “Oh, no, no that doesn’t mean what it says that refers to something that happened in 70 AD.” “Well who were those two witnesses?” “Well we don’t know for sure but they might have been this, or they might have been that.”
Pastor Hutchings: And before you know they said, “Well the Scripture says that all nations, races and tongues will see their dead bodies in the streets of Jerusalem.” Before they said, “How could this be possible? You are going to bring several billion people to Israel and show them?” But now then through television that is possible.
Dr. Reagan: Absolutely, we are seeing prophecies that can be fulfilled today that we could never have seen fulfilled naturally in the past because of modern technology. You keep on going back to modern technology. So does Nathan and it really does help us to understand Bible prophecy as we have never understood it before.
Dr. Reagan: Welcome back to our interview of Noah Hutchings the Director of Southwest Radio Ministries in Oklahoma City. Noah tell our viewers how they can get in touch with you and your ministry.
Pastor Hutchings: The easiest way is simply go to the internet at swrc.com.
Dr. Reagan: Ok, and I hope they will do that and get on your mailing list. Noah I want to thank you again both Nathan and I thank you for being on our program. You’ve been a great blessing to us, and my prayer for you is this: that the Lord will allow you to live right up to the very day of the Rapture of the Church. Well folks that’s our program for this week. I hope it’s been a blessing to you and I hope you will be back with us again next week. Until then the Lord willing this is Dave Reagan together with Nathan Jones saying, “Look up, be watchful, for our redemption is drawing near.”
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