Dr. David R. Reagan and panel on the show Christ in Prophecy answer questions concerning the Jews in Bible prophecy.
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Dr. Reagan: Has God washed His hands of the Jewish people? Has the Church replaced Israel? What does Romans 11:26 mean when it says that “All Israel will be saved?” For the answers to these and other questions concerning the Jews in prophecy, stay tuned.
Dr. Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus, our Blessed Hope, and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. I’m Dave Reagan, Senior Evangelist for Lamb & Lion Ministries. And once again I am delighted to have back with me this week two experts on Bible Prophecy, who have been assisting me the past five weeks in answering questions that you, our viewers, have sent in. The first is my colleague Dennis Pollock, who is my associate here at Lamb & Lion Ministries. The other is Don McGee, the founder and director of Crown & Sickle Ministries located in Amite, Louisiana. Don I really appreciate you taking the time out from your busy schedule to be with us for the taping of these programs.
Don McGee: I also want to say thank you for inviting me to be here. I really enjoy coming and working with you guys, it’s just a lot of fun. I really enjoy it a lot.
Dr. Reagan: Thank you Don. I appreciate that. Okay folks, we’re ready to go to our consideration of the Jews in Prophecy. Okay fellas, let’s go to our first question about the Jews in prophecy, and let me warn you guys of something, these are some really insightful, in depth questions that are going to tax your knowledge of the Bible. I’ll just give you that warning in advance. For example, the first question that our viewers have sent is this: Most churches teach that because of the disobedience of the Jews, God washed His hands of them in 70 A.D., and the Church has since replaced Israel. The Church therefore is the one that will receive all the blessings promised to Israel. What about it? Is this concept correct or not?
Dennis Pollock: It makes me sad to hear that. In fact, I knew of one pastor that told how someone came–this was years ago, but I heard him say that someone came into his church and taught that. And they, at that time, were sending money to Israel to support Israel. And they said, “Well, God’s done with the Jews, why are we sending this money to Israel?” They cut off their support immediately on hearing that stupid, totally unbiblical theology. But there are so many promises in the Word of God about the Jews. Promises you cannot discount. You cannot say they have come to an end, that they are no longer relevant. Let me just read one. It’s from Jeremiah 31, “And God says, ‘Thus says the Lord, the one who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who disturbs the sea and its waves roar, the LORD of hosts is his name: if those ordinances depart,” that is the sun, moon, stars, and waves, “if those ordinances depart from before me says the LORD, then the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a nation before me forever.'” Here’s a newsflash for Mr. Arafat and company, if you want to get rid of Israel, just deal with the sun, moon, stars, and waves first, and then maybe you can destroy Israel. Now, the Replacement Theologians are going to come along and say, “Oh, but that doesn’t count any more. That’s really referring to the Church and how the Church is going to last forever.” It doesn’t say that. And who are we to say God’s promises don’t count any more for you? God still has a purpose and plan for the Jews. His promises have not been discounted. They have not been negated. And the Jew’s very existence today is proof positive that His Word is true.
Dr. Reagan: Don?
Don McGee: If that were true, then there are large portions of God’s Word that can be stamped, “Null and Void.” And one of the things that concerns me is that there are people, in very influential positions within our own government who have, these people have the President’s ear, and they believe in this Replacement Theology concept, and that is detrimental to our country.
Dr. Reagan: Well, the Lord Himself says through Paul in Romans that the calling of God is irrevocable. His calling and His gifts are irrevocable. He didn’t call the Jewish people and wash His hands of them. And you know fellas, to show you how far the Church has gotten away from the fundamental teaching of the Bible on this, you can see it in Romans 3, where Paul asks a question. It’s sort of a rhetorical question: What advantage has the Jew? He says. And what would the Church answer? What has the Church answered for 2,000 years? “None!” The Church has replaced the Jew. What does he say? “Great in every respect. First of all that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. What then, if some did not believe? Their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God will it?” And what does the Church say? “Yes, their unbelief has nullified the faithfulness of God.” What does he say? “May it never be; rather let God be found true.” I mean, the Church has gotten so far away from the teaching about the Jews. And of course, Romans 9-11 are the three chapters that are most hated by theologians during church history, because those three chapters say over and over, “God still has a purpose for the Jewish people.” And so the Church has ignored them. The Church has spiritualized them. The Church has done everything it can to undercut the message.
Dennis Pollock: When God wants to relate to a people, He does so on the basis of covenant. And when God enters the covenant with an individual, with a nation, with a people, He takes that covenant very seriously. And He has a long memory. And He entered into a covenant with the Nation of Israel a long time ago, starting with Abraham. And He has never forgotten that covenant, He has never revoked that covenant, He is still in a relationship with the Jews. And He is going to see His fulfillment of all His prophecies, all His purposes for the Jewish people, completely brought to pass.
Dr. Reagan: It reminds me of that passage in Isaiah where the Lord says, “I can no more forget you than a nursing Mother can forget her nursing child.” And He says, “I have you inscribed on the palm of My hand. I look there, and there it is.”
Dennis Pollock: Like it or not Jewish folks, you have been chosen and you cannot unchoose yourself.
Dr. Reagan: In Romans 11, Romans 11, verse 1 He says, “I say, has God rejected His people?” And what does the Church answer? “Yes.” What does He say? “May it never be.” I don’t know how much clearer this could be.
Don McGee: There are some promises that God made that are conditional.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Don McGee: We understand that, having to do with obedience. And many in the religious world and Christendom today have confused those conditional with unconditional promises. Genesis 15 is an unconditional promise. It has nothing to do with obedience. Nothing to do with anything. God says, “I’m choosing you Abraham, and this is what I’m going to do regarding the land and this kind of thing, and it will be forever, as the stars and the moon.”
Dr. Reagan: Yes. OK. One of the things, one of the reasons, I think, that people get pretty upset about this is they think if the Jews are still the chosen people of God, that must mean they are all saved.
Dennis Pollock: Right.
Dr. Reagan: They identify chosenness with being saved. What does it mean to be the chosen people of God if it doesn’t mean to be saved?
Don McGee: It means that they are a conduit. God chose someone through whom would come the Scriptures. Through whom would come Messiah. They were a conduit. The word chosen means that “I am setting you apart for a specific purpose. I have a job for you to do.”
Dr. Reagan: A conduit of God’s blessings.
Don McGee: Certainly. Well that’s what He said in Genesis 3, you know, Genesis 12. So they are chosen, and not meaning directly for salvation, though the early church was Jewish, but as a means for God to bless this World.
Dr. Reagan: They are also chosen as witnesses. They are witnesses of God. He says over and over in the Scriptures, “You are My witnesses. You are My witnesses.” They are a witness of what it means to have a relationship with God. If you study the history of the Jewish people, you will see that when you are faithful to God, He blesses. When you are unfaithful, He puts you under discipline. When you repent, He forgives and forgets and begins to bless again. Right now they are under discipline because, yes there are promises that are conditional upon them turning to the Messiah and accepting the Messiah. But God has not washed His hands of them.
Dennis Pollock: You know, the world wonders, “What is God like, if there is a God at all?” And, the truth is God is invisible. No one has seen Him. But He has chosen to reveal Himself. This great, incredible, Creator of all the universe has chosen to reveal Himself. And He took a man named Abraham, and through His descendants, the Jewish people, He brought forth a knowledge of Himself. And ultimately through Jesus Christ, He brought forth not only the knowledge of Himself, but His offer of salvation to the World. So Jesus said Himself, He said to the Samaritan lady, He said, “You worship what you don’t know. We know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.” And He chose the Jewish people to reveal Himself to the world. Now having chosen them, it’s not enough for God just to say, “Okay, you are My revelation to the world, and I’m just going to leave you to your own.” God is also determined to bring them back to Himself before it’s all said and done.
Dr. Reagan: OK.
Dennis Pollock: And we’re going to get into that.
Dr. Reagan: And incidentally, another thing that Jesus said that relates directly to this question is He said, “I will not return to this Earth until the Jewish People are willing to say, ‘Baruch ha’ba, b’shem Adonai,’ blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.” I don’t see how you can argue that God has washed His hands of the Jewish People if Jesus is not going to return until the Jewish people cry out “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.” Okay. Well, that brings us to a related question then. In Romans 11:26, it says, “All Israel will be saved.” Does that mean that every Jew is going to be saved? What does that mean when it says all Israel will be saved?
Dennis Pollock: Well, I think you have to understand that when we read the Bible, we’re reading the Bible written the way people talk. For example, when Mark describes John the Baptist’s ministry, it says, “All Judea, and the people of Jerusalem went out to see his ministry.” Well that doesn’t mean that every single person in all of Judea came out to see John. It’s described the way folks talk. Just like we might go to a ballgame and say, “Man that place was packed. I think all of Dallas was there.” Well, all of Dallas wasn’t there, but it’s the way we talk.
Dr. Reagan: Okay.
Dennis Pollock: And so the Bible says, “All Israel is going to be saved.” I think basically, Israel, by the time it’s all said and done, by the time Christ–when He comes back, Israel will have turned, nationally, to Christ.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Dennis Pollock: Now, it’s not to say you couldn’t point out one or two unbelievers here and there. But as a people, they will be a Christian-Jewish people.
Dr. Reagan: Okay. I think that that’s really what it’s talking about. I think it’s talking about the remnant that’s alive at the end of the Tribulation. Because, again, when you look at context, Romans 9 through 11, those three chapters all relate together, talking about God’s purpose for the Jews. And in Romans 9:27, He says, “Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, ‘though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sands of the sea, it is the remnant, the remnant that will be saved.'” That’s one of the themes of the whole Bible, Old Testament and New there is a Jewish remnant that is going to be saved, who at the end of the Tribulation will look upon Him whom they have pierced, weep and wail and mourn, and accept Him as their Messiah. And it is that remnant that is going to be saved.
Don McGee: And we know what percentage that’s going to be. We don’t know the numbers, but we know the percentage. It’s going to be 33%.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Don McGee: It says in Zechariah chapter 13 that “It will come about in all the land, declares the Lord, that two parts will be cut off and perish and the third will be left in it. And I will bring the third through the fire, refine them as silver, test them as gold, they will call on My name, I will answer them. I will say they are My people and the will say, ‘The Lord is my God.'”
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Don McGee: It’s one out of every three that’s going to survive during this time.
Dr. Reagan: So we’re speaking here about a remnant. God is going to save a great remnant. In fact that’s one of the reasons He is regathering the Jewish people to Israel today is He has a plan in these end times for bringing them to the end of themselves so that “they will look upon Him whom they have pierced, and weep and wail and mourn.” And that fountain of salvation can be opened in the City of Jerusalem, and that great remnant saved. And then they’re going to cry out, “Baruch ha’ba, b’shem Adonai” and Jesus is going to break from the Heavens and all I can say is Maranatha, come quickly Lord Jesus.
Dennis Pollock: Amen. He has not forgotten His Covenant.
Dr. Reagan: Amen.
Dr. Reagan: OK fellows, let’s get back to our questions about the Jews in prophecy that have been sent in by our viewers. The next question concerns Revelation 7, verses 1 through 8. It says, “That particular passage talks about 144,000 Jews during the Tribulation who are sealed by God. Are these literal Jews, or is this symbolic language? Also, what is the purpose of this group of people?” You know, this question comes up all the time. Probably the number 666 and this number 144,000 are the things that people just really seize on. The Jehovah’s witnesses say they are the 144,000. The cults, every cult claims they are the 144,000. But I tell you what, one time I went to every commentary on the book of Revelation I could find. And I probably looked at close to a hundred of them, and 85% of them said, “This is obviously, the word obviously, the Church.” What about it? 144,000. Are these Jews, the Church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Moonies, aliens?
Don McGee: It’s not the Church. And the reason we know it’s not the Church is that it says it’s the Jews. I don’t know how much clearer it could be.
Dr. Reagan: This man takes God’s Word literally.
Dennis Pollock: Yeah, right!
Don McGee: 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe.
Dr. Reagan: It even names tribes!
Don McGee: It names them by tribe. And that’s who they are. And the purpose for this group is that they are bondservants, and every time you read bondservant in the Bible, and regarding what they do, it means that they are heralds, they are preachers, they are evangelists, they are those who are trying to impact the culture and community around them for God. And that’s what these people do. And if you read just a little bit farther, down in verse 9, you see that this great multitude that comes out of this Tribulation is directly associated or impacted by this 144,000 Jews. So I believe that it’s saying very clearly that these guys are going to be evangelists, going crazy on the face of the earth, taking as many Gentiles as they can to the person of Christ.
Dennis Pollock: Yeah, and it seems that God is going to supernaturally protect them to enable them to fulfill their mission, in talking about sealing them. And then, like you say, the verse after it lists all these, He talks about this great multitude you couldn’t even number, of all the nations that apparently these people have been won to Christ. What an incredible evangelism program. But I have to say I’ll be glad to be watching from upstairs, rather than being down there to see it.
Don McGee: Amen.
Dr. Reagan: I heard Zola Levitt speaking about this one time. Zola is a Messianic Jew who has a prophetic ministry, and he has a great sense of humor, and he said that a lady got up one time in a question and answer forum and asked him, “Now Zola, do you think those 144,000 Jews are really Jews? Don’t you really think that’s a symbol for the Church?” He said, “No Ma’am, they are Jews.” He said, “Why do you think God has given us the kind of personality that we have?” He asked me that, and I wasn’t about to touch that with a ten-foot pole. And I said, “Well, what do you mean?” He said, “Haven’t you ever noticed that we’re kind of pushy?” I said, “Well, now that you mention it, I have noticed.” He said, “David, the Jews are the world’s greatest salesmen. God has given us the kind of personality we could sell anything to anybody.” And he said, “When 144,000 of these Jews are saved at the beginning of the Tribulation, they’re going to be on fire for the Lord Jesus Christ. They’re going to use all that super salesman talent that God has given the Jewish people.” And he said, “Let me tell you something, buddy, they’re going to go out and they’re going to preach the Gospel like it’s never been preached before.” He said, “They’re going to get people right up in the corner, and they’re going to have them pressed up in the corner with their arm, and they’re going to say, ‘Accept Jesus!’ And they’ll say, ‘I’m going to accept Jesus.'” He said, “We’re going to convert more people in a thousand years than you Gentiles have in two thousand.” And all I could say was, “Amen, Hallelujah, I hope you do it.” Oh me, not a thousand years but seven years. I’m talking about seven years here during the Tribulation. Yeah, during those seven years he said, “We’re going to convert more than you Gentiles have in two thousand.”
Don McGee: I think he has a point.
Dr. Reagan: OK. Well, let’s go to another question: Some people teach what is called Dual Covenant Theology, they claim there are two ways of salvation, one for the Jews, one for the Gentiles. The Jewish way is by performing good works and obedience to the laws of the Old Testament, keeping the Torah. What about it? Are there two ways to salvation?
Dennis Pollock: No. No, there are not two ways of salvation. If there were, someone should have told Paul, because Paul had this crazy habit of going to the Jews first. Whenever he would go to a city, he would go straight to the synagogue. He never was very successful, but he had a heart for his kinsmen the Jews. And they would kick him out, they would stone him, they’d beat him up, whatever. And then he would say, “Well, fine, I’ll go off to the Gentiles.” And he’d have great success, go to the next city, go to the Jews again. No, there’s only one way. John put it this way, he said, “This is the record. God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He that has the Son has life, and he that has not the Son of God does not have life.” It’s that simple. Jews need Jesus. Black people need Jesus. White people need Jesus. Hispanics need Jesus. Orientals need Jesus. We all need Jesus Christ.
Don McGee: Acts 4:12 says, “There’s no other name,” no other name anywhere, whether you’re talking about up in Heaven, or on Earth, or anywhere, “whereby we might be saved.” And the Chief Jew, Jesus Himself said, “I am the Way.”
Dr. Reagan: I am the Way.
Don McGee: Nobody, and that includes His own people. “No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
Dr. Reagan: Right. In Romans 1, verse 16, Paul writes, “I am not ashamed of the Gospel. For it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” I don’t think there’s any doubt folks, the Jews need Jesus.
Dennis Pollock: Absolutely.
Dr. Reagan: And the sad thing to me is that when people begin to discover their Jewish roots and begin to study the Jewish roots of the Church, which is very important. I mean you can’t understand really, communion, unless you know something about the Passover meal. They sometimes fall in love with the Jews because God loves the Jews. God will give you a heart for loving the Jews. But they’ll love the Jews to the point that they’ll buy into this Dual Covenant Theology. I’ve seen it happen over and over and over again. And the first thing you know, they’re loving Jewish people right into Hell by refusing to share the Gospel with them, because they say, “Well, surely they have another way of salvation.” They don’t have another way; Jesus is the one and only Way.
Incidentally, that’s one of the greatest heresies, in fact, more than heresy, greatest apostasies in the Church today, is that more and more we’re finding Christian leaders who are teaching that there are many different roads to God. There is an Islamic road, there is a Buddhist road, a Confucius road, there’s a Jewish road. “There are just many different roads to God. God has revealed Himself in many different ways.” And it sounds so wonderful and so beautiful, and it’s just paving the way, I think, for the Antichrist religion of the end times. Where I think the Antichrist is going to say to the world, “Hey, you can believe whatever you want to believe. You can worship bullfrogs if you want to, as long as you consider me to be your messiah.” There are not many roads to God.
Dennis Pollock: No, and anybody that knows the Bible at all would know that. The only way you could really hold to that is either you don’t read the Bible at all, or you don’t give much credence to what it has to say. The Bible makes it absolutely plain, over and over again: Jesus is the only way to salvation.
Dr. Reagan: Another question. This one is very interesting. It says, Bible prophecy teachers seem to be obsessed with the Jews. In fact, I had a guy stand up one time and just yell at me. It wasn’t even question and answer. He said, “You’re just obsessed with the Jews. Why are the Jews so important to a study of Bible prophecy? Why is that? You know, I always tell people, when I’m beginning, like a 101 class in Bible prophecy, I tell them right up front, “If you have one ounce of anti-Semitism in your bones, you will not like Bible prophecy.”
Dennis Pollock: Yeah.
Dr. Reagan: Why are the Jews so important to the study of Bible prophecy? Why does it seem that God is obsessed with them?
Don McGee: What God has done, is doing, and will do, through and to the Jewish People, constitutes two things. Number one: It’s the key to understanding Bible prophecy. And number two: It’s the time clock as to when God is going to function.
Dr. Reagan: What do you mean by the time clock?
Don McGee: Well, He’s going to deal with the Jewish people when He takes His Church out. We know that. When the Church is out, we know that that next seven-year period is a time when He is going to deal directly with His people. And we also know that it’s going to last seven years. And from the day that this thing starts until the day that it ends, we know that’s a seven year period, and then He’s going to come back to be King of kings, and Lord of lords on the face of this very earth.
Dennis Pollock: Yeah. One of the things you see as you look at history over the last few hundred years is a restoration that God is doing both in the Church and in the nation of Israel. The Church was in total darkness a few hundred years ago. They didn’t know a thing. They didn’t know what salvation was. They didn’t know who the Holy Spirit was. They couldn’t tell anyone how to be born again. Starting with Luther and going on from there, God began to restore various aspects of the Church, to where now we have a lot more knowledge and the Church is lot better off than we were 500 years ago in total darkness. At the same time, God has been restoring the nation of Israel. He’s restored the land. He’s restored the language. He’s restored the people to the land. He’s restored the rainfall. I mean, He’s just done an incredible work of restoration. He’s bringing these two to a climax where there will be a harvest. The harvest of the Church will be the Rapture of the Church. The harvest for Israel will be when Jesus comes back and they are saying, as you mentioned, “Baruch ha’ba, b’shem Adonai, blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.” And at that point, all the prophecies will be fulfilled and Christ will come and reign.
Dr. Reagan: You know, Don, you mentioned the Jews are God’s time clock. There is another way in which they’re a time clock, and that is that throughout the Bible we’re told a certain thing is going to happen to the Jews in the future. And when that happens to the Jews, this will happen. Watch the Jews. When this happens, this will happen. Even Jesus did that. Jesus said the Jews are going to be taken into captivity. They’re going to spread all over the World. And He said Jerusalem is going to be trampled down by the Gentiles, and when it is no longer trampled down, I’m coming. “Watch the Jews. I’m going to do this and this and this.” The Bible says in the end times God is going to re-gather the Jews from the four corners of the earth and bring them back to Israel. He says He will put them back in the City of Jerusalem. He says that all the nations of the world will come together against them and He says, “When all that takes place, you will know that I am at the very gates of Heaven.”
Don McGee: I don’t like saying what I’m about to say, but I think it needs to be said. In my dealings since I’ve been in this ministry, my dealings with people who just vehemently refuse to accept Bible prophecy are oftentimes people who have an anti-Semitic structure to their hearts. The hatred of the Jew is keeping them from understanding a lot of what is said here.
Dr. Reagan: Right, I know that for certain. There is no doubt about it.
Dr. Reagan: I want to thank you for tuning in this week. I hope the program has been a blessing to you and I hope you will be back with us next week when we will conclude this series of questions and answer programs by taking a look at some of the most commonly asked questions about the book of Revelation. I want to take this opportunity to thank both Don and Dennis for helping me respond to your questions during the past six weeks. And if you have other questions you would like to hear us discuss, please send them to the email address you see on the screen, and we’ll try to respond to them in some of our future broadcasts. Until then, this is Dave Reagan speaking for Lamb and Lion Ministries, saying, “Look up, be watchful, for our redemption is drawing near.”
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