How long will our country waver between two opinions about God? Find out with hosts Tim Moore and Nathan Jones on the television program, Christ in Prophecy!
Air Date: November 2, 2024
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Transcript
Introduction
Tim Moore: Welcome to Christ in Prophecy! This episode is being released on Sunday, November 3rd, just two days before America participates in a great contest of political gamesmanship, the Presidential election. But as pitched as the battle has been this year, the stakes are far more important than meets the eye.
Nathan Jones: Depending on where you live, you’ve either experienced constant background noise as former President Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris vie for the upper hand, or you’ve been absolutely inundated with non-stop campaign blather. Most of the country’s experienced an unprecedented level of shrill campaigning, but those living in battleground states, well, they must have been buried under 24/7 media messaging.
Tim Moore: Ironically, although more words have been uttered in this campaign cycle than most, less illumination and light has been produced. We are far removed from the substantive debates that Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas engaged in over 166 years ago. Presidential candidates now rely on stream-of-consciousness verbosity or word-salad banality.
To cite one of my favorite Proverbs, “Where there is no vision, the people perish” (or are unrestrained or run amok), and those who would aspire to lead this great country seem unwilling to communicate, or incapable of enunciating a vision that might unite our divided nation.
With that in mind, the biblical question that echoes down through the millennia and should reverberate within our hearts is this, “How long will you waver between two opinions?” Well, how about it, Nathan? How long should our country waver? We’ve obviously been doing so for a number of years, but we are yet again at the precipice of having to make a very important choice.
Part 1
Nathan Jones: To think that our nation, over 200 years ago, was founded on Judeo-Christian values. We make that claim quite a lot at Lamb & Lion Ministries and we have people that write in and challenge it. And I say it’s pretty easy because you only have to go back to our founding documents. The Mayflower Compact is filled with this vision of a nation, a city on the hill that stood for God.
You read the Founding Fathers and their documents, not all of them are Christian, some are Deist of course, but they still had a respect for the Bible and Judeo-Christian values. And we see that throughout the documents of America. The chief justices and the presidents of the past calling upon God for help, great stalwart leaders like Abraham Lincoln, you know, calling for the Lord’s guidance during the Civil War. But with today, ever since probably the ’60s, we’ve seen God kicked out of every venue in the United States.
Tim Moore: You know, it has so many ramifications. For instance, even in our own Declaration of Independence, penned by a man whose Christian faith was, let’s say not evangelical, but Thomas Jefferson said, “We hold these truths to be self-evident,” and then he went on to cite the Creator.
And of course today, many people denounce the fact or the claim that there is truth. Your truth, my truth, what is truth? And it’s sort of like Pontius Pilate, you know, “What is truth?” In other words, we can’t even agree that there is an absolute that should guide our nation. And so in obvious truth, here again that word, this nation was founded agreeing on Judeo-Christian values, and yet we’re so far removed from that today.
Nathan Jones: It reminds me of 1 Kings 18 as Elijah the prophet was confronting Ahab. And we go back to verse 17, it says, “Then it happened, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said to him, ‘Is that you, O troubler of Israel?'” And this is how Elijah answered. He says, “I have not troubled Israel, but you and your father’s house have, in that you have forsaken the commandments of the Lord and have followed the Baals.”
You know, when I read that, Tim, that really strikes me because it seems like our country, as we’ve gotten more and more affluent, as the Lord has blessed us greatly, we have said that to God. We’ve said, “Hey, we don’t want you around anymore. We can do it on our own.” Like, kind of like a toddler, you know, who’s first starting to walk, we’re so sure of ourselves, but, you know, what have we done? We’ve forsaken the commandments of the Lord and we’ve chased after the Baals, chased after the idols of self. And as a country then, when you abandon God, you also abandon His protections.
Tim Moore: You certainly do, and your passage obviously cites Elijah’s response to the king. I’ve said many times, folks, Nathan and I consider ourselves troublers of our current culture because we’re going to call out injustice and righteousness and wickedness when we see it. And Ahab didn’t like that in his day. Too often our leaders don’t like that today. But we’re going to speak truth wherever necessary and not hold back even in the face of power.
Nathan Jones: Good!
Tim Moore: But Elijah also asked the people a question, I did so even in our introduction, “How long will you waver between two opinions?” And I’m reminded that just a handful of generations prior, Joshua had posed a similar question when he emphatically stated, “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” But there in Joshua 24, he basically asked the people if they were willing to make that same pledge. And three different times, verses 16 through 18, verses 21 and 24, the people of Israel affirm that they would follow the Lord, that they and their children, their children’s children would stay true to Him.
And yet in Judges 2:10, it records that “there arose another generation after them,” these who had made the pledge, “who did not know the Lord, nor yet the work which He had done for Israel.” Just a generation or two after this group that had seen all that God had done for them, leading them through the wilderness to the Promised Land, there arose another generation.
And by the time Elijah gets on the scene, when he asks, “How long will you waver?” 1 Kings 18:21 says, “The people did not answer him a word.” They were silent. And I think that’s exactly what’s happened in our day and age. The former generation that was faithful, not perfect, but at least resolute in their faith, has led to yet further generations that followed. And today, people are silent, even when posed the question, “How long will you waver?”
Nathan Jones: I have Joshua’s statement, “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” on a plaque above the door in our house so that my kids…
Tim Moore: Me as well.
Nathan Jones: …when they come in and out, I always wanted to ingrain that in them. But we live in a country that decide that our house doesn’t believe in God anymore. You know, it’s interesting, at that battle where 450 prophets of Baal and 400 Asherah, that’s 850 to 1, and it shows that at that time period that Elijah had gotten to, is that the nation had so removed itself from the Lord that it was 850 to 1 in that battle.
You know, Tim, when I was growing up, I used to read the history of Israel through the, you know, Chronicles and Samuel and Kings and all that, and it seemed like you had one generation that was really passionate about the Lord. And then, like you just read, the second generation that was, eh, kind of apathetic. The third started to be openly rebellious against God. And the fourth was so bad that God would bring judgment on them so they would return and come back to the Lord.
And it was a rinse and repeat cycle every four generations. And as a kid I remember thinking, “Man, what is wrong with these ancient Israelites? Are they stupid?” Well, now I’ve been around a few decades and I look at America, and we are in that fourth generation. It’s like we’ve fallen into that same pattern.
Tim Moore: We certainly have. I think it’s the human condition, and all of us are prone to wonder. I’ve said it before, I’m prone to wonder, prone to leave the Lord I love if I do not stay resolute in my faith and determined to follow after Him. I have to make this choice of whom I will serve, Nathan, sometimes day by day, hour by hour, even minute by minute. But talking about that four-generation cycle, I’m reminded of a statement made by an author, a G. Michael Hopf, who said, “Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And weak men create hard times.”
You know, the founders of our nation, the very pilgrims that came over to this land, carved out of the wilderness, cities and homes and farmsteads. It was a hard life. And yet they were determined to do so, not just for the betterment of themselves and their family, but to the glory of God. Again, imperfect people but yet dedicated to a cause. And those strong men and women, over a series of years and generations, created a prosperity in this nation that was unparalleled, at least in the modern era, across the country.
And yet those good times, and we can say almost the height of our good times may have been in this last century following our recognition of Israel, you and I have discussed, in the ’50s, those good times then created weak men who took all the goodness, all the prosperity for granted, all the blessedness of Almighty God. And those weak men have now led us into hard times once again. The question is, will the cycle repeat to where we can, once again, raise up young men and women who are ready to create prosperity because they recognize its source as Almighty God?
Nathan Jones: Well, I think the answer, Tim, is Jeremiah 2:11-13. It says, “‘Has a nation changed gods, though they are not gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit. Be appalled, O heavens, at this; and be horribly afraid, be very devastated,’ declares Yahweh. ‘For My people have done two evils. One, they have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, to hew for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns that can hold no water.'”
In other words, we have replaced God with false idols, and the worst of it, ourselves. I mean, especially when you listen to atheistic scientists go on and on how, like, the new priesthood are the smartest people on the planet and they should be worshiped. And so the people follow them and then they chase after evolution and all sorts of humanistic sciences that aren’t science at all. And our country has given these false prophets rule over our lives and authority over our lives.
So, are we at the point of no return? Well, you know, who are we to say? God could bring a third great awakening, but we’ve got to remember the first two great awakenings, the people were spiritually apathetic and ready. We’re in open rebellion against God right now, so probably not.
Tim Moore: I think as we face the election, coming just in a couple of days as this program airs, I cited the passage from Proverbs, “Where there is no vision, the people perish,” or they run amuck. They are unrestrained.
And clearly, folks, as you look around at our broader society, you see how that unrestraint, that running amuck, is born out across your television screen every night if you watch the news. And I have always advocated, Nathan, that to have a great leader, to have someone who aspires to actually lead, you have to have what I call the ABCs of leadership.
I used to tell young people this when they came to visit the Capitol, as I was serving there, you have to have (A), a willingness to lead. And so some are willing to lead, some do run for office and other roles because they want the power, others because they want to be a servant leader. And I dare say, even in my time in politics, there were more people hungering after power than they were selflessly desiring to serve even at great cost to themselves and only for a season.
The (B), would be boldness to act when action is called for. And we have so many timid leaders, I can tell you even military leaders these days, who are hesitant to act for fear that they might do something out of step with their superiors. And so they are very hesitant, even when boldness is absolutely required.
I had a three star general one time who I was appealing to to make a decision. This was at an army post in my district. And he said, “Well, I just don’t know if we can do that. I need to talk to the lawyers.” And I finally tapped him on the shoulder and said, “That’s why they give you three of those,” pointing to his stars. I said, “It’s so that you can make a decision.” Well, let’s just say he was very offended, but…
Nathan Jones: I can imagine, yeah.
Tim Moore: …but he had not shown a willingness to make a decision, even as a three star general. Leaders have to be bold.
And the final letter, the (C), is clarity of vision. And that’s exactly what the Proverbs speaks to. And folks, you all know this, experientially, most of our leaders would rather muddy the waters than provide an actual clarity of vision, sadly. And sometimes, even at the presidential election, we have candidates today who can’t even enunciate their vision or perhaps are just unwilling to tell people what they really intend to do.
Nathan Jones: We’ve set the bar so low, haven’t we?
Tim Moore: We really have.
Nathan Jones: The fact that they even show up on a stage or take an interview now, seems like a big accomplishment. And it’s so sad because we’ve had so many great leaders in our history. I think, you know, we always go to George Washington or Abraham Lincoln or, you know, Roosevelt or…
Nathan Jones: Yeah. Last week we talked about Harry Truman.
Nathan Jones: Harry Truman.
Tim Moore: Harry Truman, a Democrat…
Nathan Jones: Eisenhower.
Tim Moore: …was willing to say, “The buck stops here.”
Nathan Jones: Reagan, I mean, and the beauty about Ronald Reagan is that he set the vision. He knew what to… he set a vision for the nation and really for the world, a world without communism, a world where people got along.
But it doesn’t seem like our leaders today have a vision anymore, and the Bible prophesied that. When a nation goes away from the Lord, the Bible says the Lord will give them children. It doesn’t mean that He gives them actual kids, but they are, well, we’re seeing mentally with some of them, but emotionally and puerile they’re not dedicated to God. They’re not dedicated to the safety of the country.
Tim Moore: They’re immature.
Nathan Jones: They’re for themselves, yes.
Tim Moore: They’re very immature. You know, I look at what has happened, even in these past months, we’ve seen the Democratic candidate, President Joe Biden, removed, virtually forcibly, by his own party. There was a political coup that took place to replace him with Kamala Harris, the only presidential candidate I think in US history that has never received a vote to put her in that position. And that’s true to this day. She is the Democratic candidate without getting any votes in any primaries, because they were all for Joe Biden. And yet she is the candidate.
We also had two assassination attempts on Donald Trump. And I thought back to some of the assassinations that have taken place in American history, a tragic number. William McKinley, back in 1901, shot by a young man who claimed to be an anarchist, but had socialist ties. We can think of John F. Kennedy being shot by Lee Harvey Oswald, also a disaffected young man who had grown disillusioned.
The same thing could be said of John Wilkes Booth with regard to Abraham Lincoln, but… Ronald Reagan, shot by a disillusioned, disaffected young man, John Hinkley. And Trump, shot both on July 13th, and almost shot in September, by two men who were disillusioned and had grown very despondent about the state of affairs in our world today.
And you think how many young people share that same sentiment. They are disillusioned and they’ve been stoked to be embittered, especially toward anybody that is not aligned with the left. And I know there are people on the right who also disassociated and disaffected, but this is a rising problem in our society.
Nathan Jones: My biggest concern, Tim, is that for the last 20 years we’ve taught our youth and, you know, my children, your children, a lot of them are Gen Zs, and they’ve been taught to hate the country. It’s systemically racist. You know, our government approval rating is in the tank, the media’s approval rating must be in single digits. All the major institutions in the United States, nobody trusts anymore. And when you don’t trust your own nation anymore, then you are at war against it. And a house divided will always fall.
Tim Moore: You know, I was reading an article recently about the choice that faces America and we’ve had some very prominent individuals in our nation. Goodness, Bernie Sanders almost became the Democratic candidate in the year 2000.
Nathan Jones: His policy sure did.
Tim Moore: He was an avowed Democratic socialist. And yeah, his policies really have informed these last four years, because Joe Biden has enacted most of what Bernie would’ve wanted. And yet there was a great book written by Whittaker Chambers, that talked about the scourge of communism. And he says, “The more one learns or commits to God, the more that person moves away from socialism.”
And we have gotten to the point where the choice, as another great author, Fulton Sheen, said, “The choice is either brotherhood in Christ, or comradeship in antichrist.” And so really, this is a spiritual battle even for the heart and soul of our nation as manifested in an election. Now we’re not here calling candidates out for being a tool of Satan, but the policies that they are pursuing, either on the right or the left, either harken to what is revealed in Scripture, or they are counter to what God would call us to do as individuals and as a society.
Nathan Jones: It’s what our ministry always calls abandonment wrath. The more a nation pulls away from God, the more God says, “Okay.” But we don’t — like a child, you know, when you’re learning to ride a bike and your father’s hand is on the back of that seat, he’s holding it and you think you’re riding that bike, but you’re not really, he’s holding onto it, you know?
That’s where we are at as a country, we’re like, “Okay, God, we can ride this bike all on our own, we don’t need You.” And we don’t realize that how long God’s hand has been holding that bike, to the point where then God says, “Okay, if you don’t want Me, I will abandon you in certain areas to your own devices.” Well, our devices are always falling, they’re always going to be the wrong choices for the most part. And so we’re going to fall.
And that’s what’s happened, our minds — and of course, when you tie that into Romans 1, where a society becomes more and more depraved the more they fall away from God. Well, we know as a society, when we have to celebrate an entire month of Pride and half the country thinks abortion’s okay, where comedians like Bill Maher are openly saying that abortion is murder and that’s okay. Well, as a society, is it worth saving? That’s the question.
Tim Moore: Well, is it worth saving? The question should be personalized. Is my family worth saving? Obviously my family is worth saving. I would give my life for them. And frankly, having been in the military, Nathan, you serve in ministry, we have given of our lives to serve others, to share the Good News of Jesus Christ, yeah, in a military sense, to go and defend those who are defenseless or are sometimes innocent.
And frankly, in both regards, we preach to, appeal to, and even defend whether a person is godly or ungodly because we hope that they will give their lives to Christ, and we want to save all. That is the heart of Christ manifested even in our role. But the question is, if you enlarge that from just my family or the people that we come in contact with, are the voters of this country ready to recognize the choice that is presented to all of us this week?
Nathan Jones: I mean, if we like inflation, if we like criminals pouring across our borders, if we like looking weak around the world, if we like punishing ourselves, and that’s the scary thing, Tim, is I think we do, we like punishing ourselves, then we know which candidate will likely be voted in. If we are offended by someone’s personality and don’t grasp the policies, well then, well, we’re going to get what we deserve.
And I like what you’ve said time and time again, is that God already knows the outcome of this election. This isn’t surprising. Back in the Egyptian Pharaoh era, He knew who was going to win this election because in the end it really doesn’t matter, does it?
In the end, all of us are Christians, we’re all citizens of the Kingdom of Christ that’s coming. These nations will pass away, they won’t exist anymore. And when the Lord comes and sets up His kingdom, as we learn in Daniel 2, the statue of Nebuchadnezzar will be destroyed, earthly government will fall, and God will set up His kingdom on this earth.
Tim Moore: You know, that brings up another good point, Nathan, that I hadn’t thought of till this moment. Some people, perhaps some of our viewers today, will say, “What’s the point? Whether I vote or not, I’m just one out of how many millions that are going to vote. I cannot decide the outcome of the election.” I will tell you, there are some elections at the local and even the state level that have been decided by a single vote.
Nathan Jones: Remember the Gore-Bush election?
Tim Moore: Yeah, exactly right.
Nathan Jones: 500 votes. 500, that’s all it took.
Tim Moore: 500 votes for a presidential election, so every vote does count. And yet Scripturally, our call is not to determine an outcome, but to be faithful in every situation. So you think of God’s call to Ezekiel and the Lord said, “You go and preach, you go and proclaim, you be a watchman warning others in this moment, and yet your results will be very lacking.” As a matter of fact, the Lord told Ezekiel, “No one’s going to heed you or listen to you.”
That does not matter. Your responsibility is to speak out and to stand on truth. And so folks, I think the same would be true for Nathan and for me, for all of us, it doesn’t matter the outcome. God holds us accountable to be responsible to reflect the very values that He has called us to.
And as you said, Nathan, no candidate, none, even the ones that we put on a pedestal like George Washington or Abraham Lincoln, were perfect. We’re not voting for someone who’s perfect, otherwise we would demand that Jesus Christ be on the ballot and someday He will be the one who reigns, but right now, we’re choosing between not just two individuals, not even just two parties, but two worldviews, two sets of policies that will take this country, either in a continuing godless and wicked direction or perhaps, just perhaps, try to pull back on that to restore some of the sanity. And that’s what I hope happens this week.
Nathan Jones: Yeah, I read that 40% of Christians don’t vote. They just, they don’t, they don’t want to get up. I have Christians come up to me and say, “I just can’t vote. I don’t like either person.” I’m like, “Well, we’re not voting in a pastor, we’re not voting in Christ. We’re voting in a secular position. Why? Because as Christians we’re called to be salt and light in this world.
We are supposed to hold evil back. And so we might not agree and we never will with our leaders, but there are some policies that are godly and some policies that aren’t. And if you’re not voting for the godly policies or if you’re voting for the ungodly policies, you’ve got to stand before the Lord one day and give account for that.
Tim Moore: You certainly do. And again, the account will not be, well, my candidate didn’t win. The Lord’s not going to hold us accountable for that. He controls the outcome of even an election that we think everybody democratically electing determines. The Lord controls that. But He will hold us accountable for our actions at every moment. And this is such a moment.
I call it an inflection point because it’s a time to step back and say, “Where are we? And where do I want to go as a citizen of this land? And quite frankly, what kind of nation do I want my children and my grandchildren to grow up in?” If the Lord tarries, we can all see the trajectory we’re on is a hopeless, despairing trajectory, which is causing so many young people to be despairing and nihilistic. But we have to push back against that and make every effort to right the ship.
Nathan Jones: Absolutely. I mean, that’s what we’re called to do as Christians. So I don’t think, really, it should be a decision where people have to struggle with whether they should vote or not. It’s just a given as a Christian that we even live in a country where we get to vote, where our vote counts.
Now increasingly, you know, there’s always that discussion of whether the vote will count or not. Well, if that 40% of Christians came out and voted, it wouldn’t matter how much cheating went on because the numbers would be so overwhelmingly for policies that the Lord supports, then it wouldn’t even be a contested election.
Tim Moore: It would not be a contested election. Here’s the reality. We know that in the end God wins! And frankly, that’s regardless of the outcome of any election. That’s regardless of the efforts of Satan and all of his minions in the demonic realm and all his stooges that sometimes do his bidding, even in this life, whether wittingly or unwittingly. The Lord God wins! But between here and there, we are responsible to seek the welfare of the nation we live in.
I think of Jeremiah’s word of encouragement to the Jews living in exile in Babylon. And the same thing applies to us. I think we’re going to touch on that next week. But right now, as we have a chance to make a decision, the choice is, will we waver? Will we go wobbly as Margaret Thatcher stated, or will we be resolute, seeking the welfare of this land, this nation, with whatever impact and influence we have? And that primary influence this week is not just your voice but your vote, which becomes our voice.
Nathan Jones: Right, and before we start any program, we always pray and Tim, you prayed, “Thy will be done.” And really isn’t that what we’re trying to do as Christians here? We know that we’re citizens of the kingdom to come, but in the meantime we’re praying, “Thy will, Lord, be done.” What’s the Lord’s will? The Lord has a good and perfect will. He wants to see His church grow. He wants to see evil held back. So if we are His hands and feet, we are the church, then that’s what we need to accomplish and that’s what we need to be doing.
Tim Moore: It certainly is, and we need to recognize that even in times of darkness there will be pockets of light. And sometimes it’s the fact that we are willing to shine all the brighter in the midst of the darkness, that draws other people.
Conclusion
Tim Moore: Well, folks, we have presented the very stark choice that faces America today. This presidential election offers yet another inflection point to pause and consider the trajectory we are on.
Nathan Jones: Well, many people have fixated on the choice between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, the designated candidates of the Republican and Democratic parties, but down ballot from those two, every voter will have other national officials and often state and local officials to vote for.
In many jurisdictions, voters will also weigh in on ballot initiatives to deal with issues ranging from abortion to school choice. The decisions made collectively this week will determine what direction this country and your state and local government proceed in the years to come, and the repercussions will last far more than four years.
Tim Moore: One of the questions we’ve touched on today is how did we get here? How did this ostensibly Christian nation devolve to the point that half our population promotes the murder of unborn children, the destruction of every institution from marriage to the Supreme Court, and even the confusion of men and women in their God ordained sexual identity?
Prophetic voices have been sounding the alarm to our society for years, in essence asking, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him.” All the confusion of our age was foretold in Scripture as God revealed to His prophets that the world would descend into moral and spiritual darkness in the End Times. Dr. David Reagan, the founder of Lamb & Lion Ministries, addressed the State of America today in a powerful book entitled “America’s Suicide.”
We certainly do not celebrate the chaos and destruction that is enveloping our nation. We have prayed earnestly that our next President will honor God and follow clear biblical teachings, turning back from the godlessness and abominations that have been celebrated over the past four years. But like the minor prophet Habakkuk, regardless of circumstances, we will exalt in the Lord and rejoice in the God of our salvation.
Join us in praying for America this week. Pray for all the officials who will be elected at every level of government. Determine to put your prayers into action by voting your biblical values. And participate in the great right of responsibility that is ours to advocate for right and truth. Then rest in the assurance that God is in control and that your eternal citizenship in the kingdom of God is already secure if you have trusted in Jesus Christ.
We will be back next week to follow up on this election conversation with an episode entitled “America at The Crossroads.” Until then, may God shed His grace, His unmerited, immeasurable, unstoppable, and much needed favor on this land we love. Godspeed!
End of Program