Inquiring Minds… The Rapture of the Apostle John

Part 2

Tim Moore: So how about it, Nathan? What happens in those first three chapters that kind of sets the stage for what we will unpack in Revelation 4?

Nathan Jones: Well, we got to remember that John is the last of the apostles. He’s 96 years old. All his other friends have been crucified and stabbed and stoned to death. He is the last one. And even the Emperor at that time tried to boil him alive, and God miraculously protected him. Angry, he was put by the Emperor onto the island of Patmos out there in the Mediterranean Sea.

Tim Moore: Aegean Sea, yeah.

Nathan Jones: Yeah, and so he was there alone, put to hard labor. He had a 96-year-old man put to hard labor. He’s probably living in some mud hut. He’s looking out to his church in Ephesus where he’d been bishop, and is so sad, you know, “Where’s the Lord, where is His coming?” And then all of a sudden, as an answer to his question, Jesus bursts from the clouds, and not in His human form that he knew Him, but in all His glorified deity. And He comes to John and He says, “John, I want you to write what I’m going to reveal to you.”

Tim Moore: That’s very powerful. Obviously, John was the last man standing, we would say, and you can think there’s a degree of sadness to think, “I’m the last one.” But there’s also a degree of thanksgiving that the Lord had been faithful. As you’ve shared before, some actually believe that John was dunked in boiling oil. The Emperor tried to kill him in that manner. We don’t know that for sure, but that is a legend surrounding the attempt to take John off the scene altogether. But because he couldn’t be killed, the Emperor said, “All right, fine, you go to the island of Patmos.” And here it is where Jesus appears.

Now, a lot of people think, when they open the book of Revelation, because some of the editors of the older translations oftentimes said, “The Revelation of St. John the Divine,” and yet that’s not what the book says. The opening verse says that this is, “The revelation of Jesus Christ.” So John recorded it, as you said, but it’s not his revelation, it’s one given to him by Jesus Christ, and not just for John. It says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place, and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John.” So John’s a bond-servant, and all of us who are followers of Christ are also bond-servants, and this message, really, is for us.

Nathan Jones: Yeah, I mean, you’ve got to realize that if you had a red letter Bible, that the Book of Revelation is going to be the red letters. So we’ve got a message from God the Father through the Son. There’s an angel that kind of guides John throughout the book of Revelation. There are some chapters, like chapters two and three, the seven letters to the seven Churches of Revelation, which are dictated, so John would dictate. Other times, God would say, “Well, just write down what you see and record it.” And so John is given a view of different time periods, a time that’s current, a time that’s future, the Church Age, and then off into the distant future.

Tim Moore: Off into the distant future. You know, I think it’s instructive to realize that the person who says the things that must soon take place is none other than God, that the person that defines soon, we often say, “Well, when is that going to happen?” We often tell you that Jesus is coming soon. Who gets to define the word soon? The person that gets to define the word soon is God the Father. So He has the determination of when soon is and when the Son will come.

But in the midst of all this, as John probably is overwhelmed by just the awesomeness, as a youth pastor might say, of Jesus appearing, the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Don’t be afraid.” And so that happens there in chapter one, verse 17. Obviously, we should not be afraid even as Jesus is revealing. But Nathan, you talked about what John had seen, what would soon take place, and what would happen in the future. We sort of refer to that as the outline of the book of Revelation. What does that have to tell us there in verse 19?

Nathan Jones: Yeah, chapter one, verse 19, God gives us kind of an outline of what the book of Revelation is going to be. First, the things that he’s seen. That’s chapter one. That’s what John sees. He sees Jesus appear. He’s got a revealing angel that’s going to guide him. And so he’s being prepared to write this message.

Now, in chapters two through three, the things which are, in other words, the Church Age. He’s going to send seven letters to seven churches that are out in the Asia Minor area, which we call Turkey today, and those are current churches during John’s time, even though they have prophetic significance to the Church Age.

And then from chapter four to the very end, he’s going to go into the distant future. We’re going to see two chapters on the Throne of God, which we’re going to hover on today, and then we’ll get into the Tribulation Era, the Millennial Kingdom Era, and then the Eternal State Era after that.

Tim Moore: This is such a broad overview that is provided to John. There’s so much detail, folks, we will share later, but we have some tremendous resources. Obviously, Nathan and I have spoken all through the Churches of Revelation in a multi part series on Christ in Prophecy. We have our Revelation Study Guide and all sorts of other materials. So if you want to dive into the things which are, that being the Church Age, I can assure you we have plenty of material that will help you unpack what Jesus dictates as letters to those seven churches, but really has application to churches throughout the Church Age, including many today, as you would go to our website at christinprophecy.org.

Nathan Jones: I spend a 100 pages alone just in the Mighty Angels of Revelation, covering the seven churches of Revelation. There’s so much to unpack there, but we’ve got to get after that, right? Because we’re going to focus on something amazing that John did.

Tim Moore: Yes, we are.

Nathan Jones: And it’s the fact that many refer to John being raptured up to Heaven. So, let’s dig into that.

Tim Moore: So that’s the crux of it. Obviously, we have from the outline in verse 19 of chapter one, the things which are, as you said, chapter one, the things which–Excuse me, the things which you have seen, chapter one, the things which are, chapters two and three, and then the things which will take place after these things. So as you open Revelation 4, it says, “And after these things I looked, and a door standing open in heaven.”

So we know that this chapter, this segment of the book that deals with the things which are the Church Age, has now been transitioned, and we’re going to see a future prophecy that John is going to have revealed to him. And he sees a door standing open in Heaven. “And the first voice which I had heard,” John writing this, “Like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, ‘Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.'” So here we are, back to the outline. But who is it that’s speaking and saying to John, “Come up here”?

Nathan Jones: It’s the Father Himself. He’s being called up to Heaven for… And this is where some people refer to this as a possible rapture. Now, was he in his earthly body when he went up to Heaven? Was he in a glorified or intermediate body? Or was he by the spirit? Or was just this a vision in his head? The Bible really doesn’t explain. But many theologians believe that John was physically transported up to Heaven through this door, and that’s interesting. And now you hear people say, “Well, is that a portal or a…” Well, all the Bible tells us is it is a door that opened, like a standing door. Maybe it was a giant door, like a huge gate with golden…

Tim Moore: We don’t know.

Nathan Jones: Maybe it was the doors that we read about later in Revelation and during the Bowl Judgments that are part of the Throne Room of God, because God will close those doors before the Bowl Judgments. But either way, John is taken up to Heaven. Your thoughts on, was he physically, or do you think it was a vision, or what?

Tim Moore: It says, Scripture just says very plainly, in chapter four, verse two, “Immediately I was in the spirit, and behold, the throne was standing in heaven, and one sitting on the throne.” I think he was physically present, but it says, “In the spirit.” Now, was that in his spirit or in the power of the Holy Spirit? In my translation, the New American Standard, the word Spirit is capitalized. That would suggest that he came into Heaven through the power of the Holy Spirit. But I think he was actually there.

And so we think, how can a physical person step into Heaven? Well, in this power of the Spirit, John was able to do so. You said the Father said to, “Come up here.” I don’t know if the Father spoke in this case, or if it was through the Son who is the spoken Word of the Father, but regardless, God says, “Come up here, and I will show you the things which will take place after these things.”

Nathan Jones: My thoughts is that because Jesus is with John on the Earth, that He wouldn’t say, “Come up here,” because…

Tim Moore: That’s a great idea.

Nathan Jones: Whoever’s got to be up there to call them to come up.

Tim Moore: And you can see, even as Nathan and I are talking, sometimes there are details that we wait to be unpacked even in glory, but the fact of the matter is, Father or Son, God calls John to come forward. The Spirit enables him to go. And yet before we move on into this, Nathan, I’m reminded, this is such an important point, that there was another individual who also shared a similar experience in the Old Testament and was ushered into the very Throne Room of Heaven. Who are we talking about?

Nathan Jones: Oh, yeah, absolutely. It’s the prophet Isaiah, one of the most prolific prophets. Matter of fact, he pretty much wrote the Book of Revelation in the Old Testament.

Tim Moore: Yes, he did.

Nathan Jones: And he had a very similar experience to John. If you go to chapter six in the Book of Isaiah, we read something very similar. He gives the time and the year of King Uzziah’s death. He said, “I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Seraphim stood above him,” so he goes on, and as we get into John, well, we see that there’s a comparison here that what Isaiah saw was pretty much what John saw when it came to the angelic host. The only thing that’s missing, and I’ll give this ahead of time, is that the elders that circle the Throne of God in the New Testament aren’t there in the Old.

Tim Moore: Yeah, that is interesting. I also find it fascinating, as Isaiah is describing all the various angels, Nathan, you’ve written a book about the mighty angels of Revelation, but you point out all the different angels throughout Scripture that we see and try to give an explanation of what they might sort of look like. Some of that is in our imaginations, we almost can’t begin to imagine how they will look, but they are glorious, and they have multiple roles.

We’ve talked about a specific time and place where John was and where he had his vision. Obviously, Isaiah places his vision that he has in the year of King Uzziah’s or Azariah’s death. And so we know that that was at about 740 BC. And what did he see? He saw the Lord, high and lifted up, sitting on a throne. And yet his response was very different from what we’re going to see with John. How did Isaiah respond when he was in the very presence of the Lord God?

Nathan Jones: Okay, just a caveat here. We know in the Old Testament, the Lord told Moses that he couldn’t see his face or he’d die.

Tim Moore: True.

Nathan Jones: So we’ve got to remember that every time somebody goes, sees the Throne Room of God and sees God, and we’ll get into the explanation what they see, but the face of God is obscured.

Tim Moore: The face is…

Nathan Jones: The Father’s face will not be visible until the Eternal State.

Tim Moore: True.

Nathan Jones: When he has returned to that perfect relationship, that sin-free relationship. So you see the Father, but He’s shrouded. And even during Sinai, He was shrouded in the cloud, because–it’d be like us with our human eyes, sticking our heads in a nuclear reactor. We couldn’t take it. You can’t look at the magnificence of God…

Tim Moore: Great point.

Nathan Jones: In these falling human bodies…

Tim Moore: You’re given a preview of what we’re going to see with John, as a matter of fact.

Nathan Jones: Exactly.

Tim Moore: But how did Isaiah respond even being in the presence of the Almighty?

Nathan Jones: Well, certainly, John had to bow. Any time anyone’s in the face of God, he’s going to bow and show reverence. But with Isaiah, it was different. It was fear. He screamed, he yelled out, “Oh, no, I’m a man of unclean lips. I’m a sinner. I’m a sinner standing in front of a pure and holy God.”

Tim Moore: “Woe is me,” he said.

Nathan Jones: And he was terrified.

Tim Moore: Yeah, “Woe is me.”

Nathan Jones: He was terrified.

Tim Moore: I mean, it’s as if… “Let condemnation be placed upon me.” Isaiah understood. It’s almost like in other passages, “I am undone.”

Nathan Jones: Yeah, verse five, “Woe is me, for I am ruined. I am a man of unclean lips, I live among a people of unclean lips, for my eyes have seen the King, Yahweh of hosts.” Very different than John who, because of the salvation, and that’s the difference here between the Old and New.

Tim Moore: Ah, you’re getting ahead, yes.

Nathan Jones: Because, well, that’s the important point about this is that…

Tim Moore: It is but the other thing…

Nathan Jones: There’s a difference in salvation here between the two.

Tim Moore: There is. The other thing that that Isaiah recognizes, he is a man of unclean lips, and he lives among a people of unclean lips. In other words, he is coming from Judah. He is supposed to be amongst God’s people, the people of Israel, and yet he realizes, these people of God, all of us, as he is writing in Isaiah chapter six, are unclean. We are unworthy. And I now as their representative, even as the prophet called by God, I’m unworthy, I am unclean, and all these people are unclean.

Let me just ask a… And this is a little bit of a “what if” question. But what do you think Isaiah’s response would be if he had been the prophet to America and if he stood before the Throne of God? In the Old Testament, the vernacular, in other words, not yet this side of the cross, if he came as the prophet representing the people of America?

Nathan Jones: I think it doesn’t matter. It’s the chosen people of Israel. Or if it was any other nation in the world, we’re people of unclean lips, we’re sinners. We’ve got the blood of 63 million babies on our hands. The endless sins through pride parades and pride itself and adultery and you name it, we are a sinful, sinful people. And yet the Lord had compassion on Israel. I believe he’s had compassion, incredible compassion on the United States. And regardless, okay, we could say that Isaiah was probably the best of his time period. He was the most holy guy. And even he recognized that he’s still a sinner and fallen. What a testimony to us…

Tim Moore: Still a sinner.

Nathan Jones: That we are still sinners and fallen. The only difference is he was waiting for salvation.

Tim Moore: He was waiting for salvation. I think it’s also very important that the Lord gives Isaiah a charge. In other words, as he touches, has his lips touched, with a coal representing that his unclean lips are now purified and set apart for a commission, God gives him a responsibility to go and tell the people that he represented, the people of Judah, what the Lord had revealed regarding their inevitable fate.

Nathan, I think there’s an application here. We who think that we want to be watchmen and women, we have a responsibility to go and tell the people amongst whom we live, even those people of unclean lips, what the Lord has revealed, what the inevitable fate is for anyone who has rejected the free offer of salvation through Yeshua, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, the only way, truth, and life that is available to get to the Father into Heaven. So, we too, again, have a commission to go and tell. But Nathan, you’ve already got… Oh, go ahead.

Nathan Jones: Well, it’s the way he accepted that commission is interesting. The Lord says, he heard a voice of the Lord, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Meaning the Trinity. And Isaiah replies, “Here am I. Send me.” Now, it’s interesting, the, “Am I,” because it shows you the humbleness of Isaiah. He’s not, “Here I am, I’m the best of the best. I’m the biggest prophet of my time period. Of course you’re going to pick me.”

No, it’s very humbling. “Here am I. Hey, hey, of all the mighty angels that are surrounding me and all the celestial bodes and all the amazing people you could pick, kings and conquerors, I’m this little prophet, poor, I’m going to die one day for the faith, but hey, take me, please.” It’s a very humble position that he accepts this commission.

Tim Moore: That’s a beautiful point. We’ve often said God doesn’t always call the gifted, he calls the willing. And so the humble and willing servant of God, whether it’s Isaiah, whether it’s you, is able to go and do what the Lord has commissioned you to do, which is tell the people, warn them of the wrath to come, but more importantly, warn them of the salvation that’s available.

Nathan Jones: It’s kind of disappointing for Isaiah, because this is what the Lord’s commission is. “Go to these people and tell them to keep on hearing, but they do not understand, and keep on seeing, but they do not know, and render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull,” and so forth and so on. In other words, “You’re going to be given a message. I’m going to send you out to the people, and they’re going to totally reject your message.” Same when Jesus came. “I’m going to send the Messiah, the Son. He’s going to perform miracles and people should flock to Him and proclaim Him king, but they’re going to reject Him, too.” And it goes on and on and on.

Tim Moore: You know what, there’s a point at which, and that’s why I said the inevitable fate, leaders of Judah came to the prophet Ezekiel in chapter 20 and said, “We would like another word from the Lord.” And the Lord’s word was, “I will not give you another word. You have my word. You haven’t obeyed it. You haven’t honored it. And so I’m not going to give you another word. Here is the judgment that is about to befall you.” And he warned through Ezekiel that they would be devastated and destroyed.

Even in that warning is still an inherent offer of mercy. If they will repent, then God would relent. But they didn’t repent. And so that inevitable fate took place. We too are called to share the inevitable fate for those upon whom the wrath of God abides, according to John 3:36, and so that is a very important application.

But Nathan, now we get back to Revelation, because you’ve already kind of previewed the contrast between Isaiah who came, Old Testament, a man faithfully serving the Lord, even here on this Earth, but living amongst the people of unclean lips, and recognizing in the presence of God that his lips were still unclean. Even though he had made sacrifice, even though he tried to be obedient, even though he had tried to obey the law, he was still unworthy. And then we get to John, and you said rightfully that John bows, but there’s no sense of fear. John’s reaction is being overawed by the Lord’s presence.

Nathan Jones: Yeah, certain of that.

Tim Moore: And worshiping, but he doesn’t say, “Woe is me.” Why not?

Nathan Jones: Salvation. Isaiah was looking forward. His sins at the time period under the law would be covered temporarily by the death of an animal, a sacrifice. That’s why we call them sacrifices. They died in our place for a temporary amount of time. Looking for the ultimate sacrifice, the perfect God sacrificing Himself for the sins of the world.

Once Jesus was sacrificed, John was saved. The Holy Spirit lived inside him and the Church Age. He could go before the Lord. And the Bible says the Lord would see the Son instead of us. He sees the blood of Jesus Christ purifies us, (1 John), from all unrighteousness. And so it’s a very different… We can go to the Throne Room of God. And that’s the reason where we learn in Luke 16, is that the dead before Christ would go to Abraham’s bosom, or it’s… Hades had two compartments that had torments.

Tim Moore: And paradise.

Nathan Jones: And paradise, with the pit that Satan will be thrown in one day in the middle. And paradise was taken up, the captives were taken up to Heaven when Jesus ascended to Heaven. And therefore, when we die now, we don’t go to Abraham’s bosom or paradise, we go exactly to Heaven.

Tim Moore: You know, you talk about the sacrifice that was made all the way back in the Garden, when man came to recognize, “Oh my goodness, we’re actually naked, and we have sinned.” Who provided the covering for their sin?

Nathan Jones: Good point.

Tim Moore: It was the Lord God. And what did it require? It required the shedding of blood. Now, if I was creating a religion, I might come up with a more bloodless religion. All right, I’ll tell you what, we’ll just fashion it out of some kind of metal and make you clothes or whatever. Fig leaves.
No, the Lord provided skins of animals. And you have to think that Adam, who had named all the various Adams, or excuse me, all the various animals, has to recognize, as the Lord is bringing these skins, “That animal I named, that I was given charge over, had to die in order to cover my sin.” And that was the model throughout the Old Testament, but it pointed forward to the One who would shed His blood, because that’s what God requires, so that our sins could be finally covered.

Nathan Jones: And I think you bring up a good point about the sacrifice, because why did the people reject Isaiah’s message? They were living on a law of sacrifices. I’ve had atheists say, you know, “This whole blood thing, what is the obsession with the blood?” Well, it’s not an obsession about killing animals, it’s about providing a temporary covering of the sins in order for you to live at the time.

And so the Lord says His ultimate sacrifice, the cross, would be a stumbling block to the Gentiles. They wouldn’t understand, why did the Son of God have to die for our sins? Because we are born sinners, we are born on the path to Hell. And that’s why we need a savior to save us from the wrath of God and the ultimate punishment of Hell, and the blood of Jesus Christ upon us does that.

Tim Moore: And so all those sacrifices, you think of all the thousands, maybe it’s numbered in the millions of animals…

Nathan Jones: Oh, absolutely.

Tim Moore: Over the course of Old Testament history, are only pointing forward to that perfect sacrifice, Whose blood would be shed for you, Nathan, for me, for any of you who have put your trust in Jesus Christ. And so all that sacrificial system was only a foreshadowing of that perfect sacrifice, the perfect Lamb of God, as John said, who came down, that His life might be forfeit. He laid it down on His own choice and His own will in accordance with the will of the Father so that we might have salvation.

Nathan Jones: And that’s why purity matters so much. I mean, we see here in John’s account of the angelic world, especially the Seraphim, you know, with the wings and covered in the eyes, and one looked like an eagle, and one a man, one an ox, and so forth. And so what do they cry out day and night? “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.” You know, we kind of take for granted the word holy, but holy means absolutely pure, absolutely sinless. When sin entered the picture, that perfect relationship between God and man was broken. And you can’t have a sinful man in the presence of a Holy Father.

Tim Moore: No.

Nathan Jones: And that’s why we have Jesus as an intermediary in the time period, waiting for that Eternal State when sin is conquered and death in Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire, where mankind, purified by Jesus’ blood, is reunited with the Father, we can open those doors, we can walk in the Throne Room, and we could see the Father face to face.

Tim Moore: You know, your point about we can’t combine sinful man and holy God is exactly what we brought out in our Jesus in the Old Testament series, when we studied Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers. There was a very tenuous relationship, as these sinful people had God’s very Shekinah Glory in their presence. And they realized that that was a great thing, but it was also a perilous thing, because if they strayed from His law, if they committed acts of unholiness, then there was immediate repercussion.

So, here, this side of the cross, John is able to stand in the presence of the Almighty. He’s able to worship with all the other elders and angelic beings, because there is now no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ. That’s the point Paul makes in Romans 8:1.

So, Paul also said, to contrast again, the Old Testament, he said in Galatians 3:10, “For as many as are the works of the Law,” anyone trying to live according to law are under a curse. He goes on to say, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, to do them.” Nathan, Paul himself said, “I tried, I failed. All the law could do for me was point out my own failure and sin and the need I had for a savior.” But thanks be to God, He provided exactly such a Savior.

Nathan Jones: And that’s why we read at the very end, verse 11 of chapter four, “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.” Someday, Tim, we’re going to experience a rapture similar to John. We are going to go up to the Throne of God, and we are going to join that chorus of angels, and we’re going to say, “Worthy, worthy, worthy is the Lord God Almighty.” Not because we’re buttering up, not because we’re forced into worship, a purity because the awesome love of God, that He would die on the cross for our sins and give us eternal life. He didn’t have to do that. He alone is worthy.

Tim Moore: Well, we know that following John’s rapture, this moment where he is transported immediately, in the twinkling of an eye, to the Throne Room of God, that the Church is not seen, it’s not described in the rest of Revelation until we get to chapter 19, when the saints, the glorified saints of the Church, return with Christ at His Second Coming. So any mention of the Church in chapters four through 18 are scenes from Heaven, not on the Earth, and people who are saved during the Tribulation obviously are referred to as saints, but not part of the Church Age.

Nathan Jones: An excellent argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture, the rapture happening before the Tribulation begins.

Tim Moore: That’s a great point, Nathan. Well, obviously, we’ve already talked about some of the resources we have available, including our Revelation Study Guide. We have a wonderful book by Dr. Reagan called Wrath and Glory. And of course, Rapture: Fact or Fiction? So listen now as you can learn how you can get these resources.

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Closing

Tim Moore: Well, John’s personal testimony of what happened to him in Revelation 4 is easy to overlook, but I think it offers dramatic insight into Jesus’ promise to the Church and the timeline of the End Times.

Nathan Jones: Our dialogue about this transitional passage, moving from the things that are to the things which will take place after these things, has really only scratched the surface. The promise of Christ to rescue the Church from the wrath to come is repeated over and over and over in the New Testament. It is that specific promise that Peter said skeptics will scoff at in the End Times. The tragic truth about that prophecy that we see fulfilled today is that the scoffers he referred to are often inside the Church.

Tim Moore: We do not know when the Rapture will occur. Jesus may shout, or the Father, “Come up here,” just like He did with John. We do know that when the trumpet sounds and the Archangel cries out, those who are in Christ, dead and alive, will rise to meet Him in the air. Scripture tells us that He has been preparing a place for us, and that eye has not seen, an ear has not heard, and it has not even entered into the heart of man all that God has prepared for those who love Him.

Nathan Jones: We love the Lord Jesus Christ with all our heart, soul, and mind, and we also love the promise of His appearing.

Tim Moore: Paul says that all who love the Lord and eagerly anticipate His appearing will receive a Crown of Righteousness. We pray that includes you!

John was given a vision of tremendous hope. Someday very soon, our Blessed Hope will call those who are His to come home. Until He does, look up and be watchful, for our redemption is drawing near! Godspeed!

End of Program