Should Christians get involved in politics? Find out with guest Jeanne Nigro along with hosts Tim Moore and Dr. David Reagan on the television program, Christ in Prophecy!
Air Date: October 22, 2022
Tim Moore: Greetings in the name of Jesus, our Blessed Hope, and welcome to this edition of Christ in Prophecy. We’re coming to you tonight from a very unusual venue, that being Forney First Baptist Church, where we’re holding our 2022 Annual Bible Conference. And we have a very special guest tonight, I say we because I’m joined by our founder, Dr. David Reagan, the man who started Lamb & Lion Ministries and has been such a blessing to so many of us for all these years. Dave, I’m so glad you’re here with us.
Dr. Reagan: Well, I’m glad to be here.
Tim Moore: Well, I’ll tell you what, I think we need to get you back more often. But tonight, because we both have a passion for talking about the Christian perspective on politics, we’ve invited a very special guest, and that is Jeanne Nigro, who’s written a book called “The Lies We Believe About Faith and Politics The Way Forward.” Miss Jeanne, thank you for joining us on Christ in Prophecy.
Jeanne Nigro: Thanks for having me, it is my favorite ministry to work with. My third time here, you know, third time’s a charm.
Tim Moore: Tell us a little bit about your own background and how you became passionate about politics, especially here in America.
Jeanne Nigro: Well, my background really spans the corporate world, and the ministry world, and now the political world. So, I worked for about 20 years in organizational change, management consulting and then formed Jeanne Nigro Ministries, a nonprofit which is primarily a teaching ministry. And that’s when I was on with you, David, before we’re talking about the deception of the third temple and the significance of the red heifer. And so, I was speaking quite a bit on intimacy with God, and end times, and biblical feasts and the Millennium, things like that.
And actually, what happened was I attended the inauguration in January of ’17 and felt really called to D.C. And I didn’t know anyone there, and I said, “Lord, if you want me to be here, then open up the doors.” And He did. And I started ministering there and teaching regularly in D.C. and getting involved in intercessory prayer and on the radio there. And then I was selected for this program, basically the D. James Kennedy Statesman program, does raising up Christian congresspeople. And I thought, well, I’ll just go on to learn more about the Constitution. I’ll just go through this. And through it, really is much of what we’ll talk about tonight, is seeing that the battle, because I never saw myself as political at all. You know, I’m in ministry, I’m spiritual things, not political. And I really saw that the political battle was a spiritual battle. And I thought well I’m in this to fight for God. And that’s why I ran for Congress in New York.
Tim Moore: Well, Dave, you actually have a background in running for office too, some of our viewers may not know that. Tell us about your own political foray.
Dr. Reagan: Well, in 1972, I decided to run for Congress in a district in North Texas. And I had been running for about three or four months and everything was going great. And then one day I turned on the radio and they said a federal judge had just thrown out all the congressional districts in Texas and they had redrawn them, and I was in a district with Wright Patman, who was the senior member of Congress at that time. So, I decided I would pull out of the race.
But at that point, the leaders of the Republican Party in Texas came to me and said, “We want you to run for governor.” And I said, “Well, now, wait a minute, wait a minute.” They said, “We will supply all the money. We will supply all the backing. We want you to run.” So, I finally agreed to do that in 1972. And that was quite an experience, I learned a lot about politics, and it wasn’t all good. And I had a call from Senator John Tower, who was a U.S. Senator at that time, he asked me to come down to Austin, Texas, to meet with him. And I went down there and he said, “David, I appreciate you running for governor.” But he said, “I’m running for reelection as U.S. senator and it’s going to be the toughest race I’ve ever been in. I’ve got to have every dollar there is. And so, I’ve put out the word, give no money to you whatsoever. You are cut off. The spigot is dry.” He said, “I just want to tell you personally.”
Tim Moore: But good luck, right?
Dr. Reagan: That was my introduction to politics. The other introduction was the day, when I was still running for Congress, I went to a man to talk to him about making a donation. And he said after a while he said, “Well, you have really impressed me and I’m going to make a donation.” He pulls out a drawer, he gets a manila envelope out, he counts out $5,000, and he said, “There’s $5,000.” I said, “Well, thank you very much.” He said, “But there is one condition, you must not report that I gave this money.” I said, “Who am I supposed to report?” He said, “Well, your brother, your sister, your uncle, your wife.” I said, “I can’t do that.” He said, “Then you can’t have the $5,000 because if you lose, that congressman is going to come after me and I don’t want my name on the list.” That was my introduction to politics.
Tim Moore: Well, as you all know, my introduction to politics was running and miraculously winning a state legislative seat in Kentucky, serving for 13 years. And it made me realize firsthand that while we have a responsibility to be engaged, as I’ve already indicated in every sphere of human endeavor, that our hope is not in the political realm, our only hope is in the blessed hope, and that is Jesus Christ.
But, you know, Jeanne, talking about your book in particular, you say that some Christians read passages like John 18:36, where Jesus says, “My kingdom is not of this world, but now my kingdom is from another place.” And they say, well, see, we shouldn’t even be involved in anything secular or worldly, especially politics. And so, they kind of remove themselves from the entire process. How are we missing out if we do that?
Jeanne Nigro: Well, I think, you know, we look at all of Scripture, the whole, I mean I believe in that particular Scripture Jesus is really talking about the Millennial Kingdom, it says that His kingdom, when He returns, will be on earth and we will be ruling and reigning with Him and implementing righteousness. And we’ll finally have a perfect government, right? A perfect leader. But in the meantime, much and many times in the parables, Jesus is talking about things like the wicked servant. You know the one who hid their talents, who hid what was given to them, until He returned. And I don’t want to be called a wicked servant when Jesus returns. So, I think there’s many places in Scripture where we’re called to righteousness, obviously. And if we see this as a spiritual battle, politics and that we’re called to advance righteousness to the things that are in God’s heart, freedom, and life, and individual choice and so forth, then we see that we do have a responsibility. You know, if the church isn’t called in to do spiritual battle, then what are we called for? What are we doing here?
Tim Moore: Amen.
Dr. Reagan: I think that in modern history, the problem has been that the church has gone too far in that extreme and begun to preach only the social gospel and not the true gospel, and have really said that the basic purpose of the church is political, and to get out there and change society, and do this, and that or whatever in politics. And we’re even finding that today, as churches all across this nation, who are publicly advancing abortion, same sex marriage, every abomination known to man, they are advancing it. That’s their political realm. They have the social gospel. We’re going to be saved by making society better, not by bringing people to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Tim Moore: Amen. You know, I think that sometimes as followers of Christ, we’re told to be salt and light in every sphere.
Dr. Reagan: Absolutely.
Tim Moore: But people say, well, that’s everything but politics. No, that’s every sphere. You and I Jeanne as were talking before, both, I think, resonate with what Abraham Kuyper said, he was the prime minister of the Netherlands back at the turn of the last century, and he said, “There is not one square inch of the whole creation over which Christ who is sovereign overall, does not cry: ‘Mine.'” And certainly, He is sovereign overall. And so that salt and light should apply in every sphere. But you said it’s actually a gospel mandate to try to share the truth revealed in Scripture, even in the political sphere.
Jeanne Nigro: Absolutely. And we think about what’s going on now, especially in politics. We have all branches of government, executive, judicial, legislative and school boards, legislating morality. And imparting, or really mandating evil and immorality. And so, we’re called, you know, Scripture tells us that if we see good that is to be done and we don’t do it, it’s sin. And so, we when we see this, when we see evil being mandated, and we see it being legislated and so forth, we’re called to do something about it. To stand against that. We have so many avenues now with technology, with email, with texting, with all these things to make a difference, to make our voices known, to stand up and say, no, this is evil.
Dr. Reagan: one point you just made there that I’d like to add to.
Jeanne Nigro: Absolutely.
Dr. Reagan: And that is that it’s very interesting that every time a Christian speaks up about we need legislation concerning this or that, immediately they’re condemned by saying you can’t legislate morality. Yet the other side is legislating their morality.
Jeanne Nigro: That’s exactly what they’re doing.
Tim Moore: Exactly right.
Jeanne Nigro: Or it is hate speech.
Tim Moore: Yeah.
Jeanne Nigro: And that’s a scare tactic.
Tim Moore: Yeah everyone legislates from some position, but those who reject a biblical worldview, which we’re going to talk about in an upcoming edition of our Lamplighter magazine, really have a different worldview that they’re legislating their own morality or maybe no morality whatsoever. Well, so obviously we have examples like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who at great personal expense tried to impact his society. Dr. Reagan and I have talked many times about how the prophets of old came over, and over, again to call out to the king, in other words, they were engaged politically. They weren’t involved in an electoral process, but they were trying to impact those who are the leaders of a nation. And we have not only a privilege, a right as citizens of this country, at least, but dare we say a responsibility to do the same.
Jeanne Nigro: In this country we, the people are sovereign. So, if we are in the sense, you know, we’re responsible for stewarding the government, even though it may not work as it was originally planned to do, but still, that was the plan. So, I believe we’re responsible to God, for how we steward what we’ve been given in this nation. And when I just like to take it simple in the book, what does God’s stand for? What’s on God’s heart? You know, life, truth, freedom, righteousness, He’s made us all as individuals. He cares about each one of us. He’s made us each have a purpose. And we have choice, we have a choice whether to accept Him or not, so choice is important, free choice is important to God. And so, in government, why did He even create government? It was to protect the innocent from evil and to punish those who do harm. While what we see now is the complete opposite of protecting those who do evil and punishing those who are innocent.
Dr. Reagan: Throughout the years, I have spoken out many, many times about problems, moral problems, primarily in our society, criticizing both Republicans and Democrats, both Republican presidents and Democrat presidents. And I get a lot of hate mail from people who say you should only talk about the Gospel. You are a minister called by God. You shouldn’t be talking about anything related to society. And I said, “Have you ever read the Old Testament Prophets?” I mean, these were people who, John the Baptist was killed because he condemned the marriage of the king at that time.
Tim Moore: Or the other criticism you have gotten, and we have gotten is when we call out a person’s favorite politician, shall we say, “And well, you can’t be criticizing them.” And I try to remind folks, you know, Nathan came and had words for King David, and King David is still a revered King in Jewish history.
Dr. Reagan: That’s right.
Tim Moore: But when he errored, God sent a prophet to call him out. We are following in the footsteps of those who declared truth to power throughout the Word of God.
Jeanne Nigro: Yes.
Tim Moore: Thirty years after the end of the Cold War with the Soviet Union, thinking that the United States and Western values had defeated Communism and Socialism, the West is driving down the road toward becoming socialistic, even in our society. Many young people don’t understand the perils of Socialism. How can our country, which was founded on freedom and liberty, but on biblical principles, be flirting with and rushing headlong towards socialism?
Jeanne Nigro: Well, there’s many reasons for that. I think one of the primary reasons, and that’s what I talk about a lot in the book, is this whole idea what I call fair and caring. Policies that are put out there, they’re messaged as being fair and caring, or Socialism is so much more fair and caring, you know, there’s equity, everybody’s equal. It’s so much nicer. And hey, we’re Christians, we should be supporting this because wasn’t Jesus nice? You know, wasn’t He fair and caring? And that’s where the deception happens. Because obviously, yes, Jesus was fair and caring, He was also holy, and honest, and truth, and righteousness, and justice and all of those things. And so, I think we need to really stop and say, wait a minute, what is the fruit of these policies? If it’s socialism, what is the fruit of that? And these policies that bring death, well, that’s not of God. You know, God is not going to endorse, as I explain in the book, it goes to say, like, Jesus endorses Socialism. Does He endorse something that brings death to our society in every way economically, relationally, emotionally?
Dr. Reagan: Just look at the socialist nations and the people starving to death.
Jeanne Nigro: That’s all you have to do. I have a hard time. I have to really confess, sometimes I wanted to say to people “Then move there.” You know, move to Cuba or Venezuela. Have a great time. Because look at the fruit, there is no fruit.
Dr. Reagan: I’ve even had people write to me and say, how can you criticize, now these are Christians, how can you criticize Socialism when the early church practiced Socialism?
Jeanne Nigro: I’m glad you mentioned that.
Dr. Reagan: I’ve heard that over and over. The point I always make is that is not Socialism. Socialism is where they put a gun to your head and say, you’re going to give so much money to this person over here, whether you like it or not. The early church was not practicing Socialism, it was practicing a communal situation where people were helping each other of their own free will.
Jeanne Nigro: Thank you so much. They use that one scripture. And that’s what we find so much in this deception, in this political realm, they’ll pull one scripture, and then build this whole theology. This is it. Well, what about what Jesus said about all these other things? And that’s that in that the early church, it was voluntary. It was never mandated. And it wasn’t for the purpose of a dictator becoming wealthy.
Dr. Reagan: Right. Well, that’s something I’ve noticed about Socialism, is it seems like all of the people at the top are very wealthy.
Tim Moore: Yes, they are.
Jeanne Nigro: So how is that equitable to everyone? Anyway, it’s a deception.
Dr. Reagan: Margaret Thatcher put it best, there’s not enough money in the world to sponsor Socialism.
Tim Moore: No, there’s not.
Dr. Reagan: You just run out of money sooner or later.
Tim Moore: Well, you also make the point in here there’s a name that many people had not heard of until recent years. And that was a writer, kind of a strategist, if you will, named Saul Alinsky, who came up with 13 Rules for Radicals. It was cited by several Democratic candidates and even presidents as being inspirational to them. Saul Alinsky dedicated his book to the first radical, the first rebel, that being Satan.
And yet the fruit that is produced by some of the ideas that he proposed, and we’re not picking out any party, per se, but we’re just saying that the ideas that he proposed, and propagated and have now infected our entire society are producing very evil fruit, and yet the mainstream media, as we would call it, is all about promoting those very ideas today.
Jeanne Nigro: Absolutely. It’s all this hatred, division, what’s the fruit of what we see in the media? It’s usually division, hatred, destruction, death of some form, the death of the family, death of our bodies. You know, I was just reading about how this going towards synthetic foods, you know. And so when you think about all these policies, and ideas, just take a step back and think, does this result in life or death, to our bodies, to our relationships, to our families, mutilating our bodies, mutilating children’s bodies so that they can change? You know, is that obviously that’s death. It all leads to death. And that’s where I think we have to just keep it almost simple, these policies result in life, and these result in death. And God is a God of life. And Satan brings death, it is that simple.
Tim Moore: So as a person who served in the military for 34 years, I have a son who’s in there now, and I’ve been patriotic in the sense of believing in the ideals of this country, if not always the reality of living up to those ideals. But can you be a patriot? Can you be a Christian nationalist? Or is this a term we should shun as believers and followers, first and foremost of Jesus Christ?
Jeanne Nigro: Well, I think with the term Christian nationalists, the first thing that we have to do is define what does that mean? Because people are using it, but with many different definitions.
Tim Moore: Yes, they are.
Jeanne Nigro: And one of the ones that I read was that they were a danger to our democracy, they’re a danger to our country. And I thought, okay, so supporting the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence is a threat? Well, a threat to what? Threat to Socialism, right, a threat to Communism. So, I think we have to really ask whoever is speaking what is the definition of that? But to me, there’s this balance, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution were built on biblical principles of freedom, of life, of individual worth, of having potential, having God given purpose. And so, we want to support those things, we want to support candidates who support those things. But at the same time, we can’t expect that, oh, if we can just take our nation back to exactly how it was in the 1700s, then we’ll be okay. Well, that doesn’t really line up with a biblical end times narrative.
You know, so I think we have to have this balance of wanting to implement righteousness, wanting to stand for life and truth and all those things, and but then also recognize what is the biblical, that we’re going to be talking about this weekend, what is a biblical end times narrative? And knowing that there’s this balance of things are going to be better in some ways, and they’re going to get worse in some ways. And so, we’re not going to be able to, I always call it because I love to study and teach on the Millennium, but I always say, you know, we’re not in the Millennium yet. So, by electing the right candidate or by almost having our founding fathers back again, we’re not really going to have the Millennium yet, you know, we can’t create that here on Earth.
Tim Moore: Only in God’s timing.
Jeanne Nigro: When Jesus comes back, yeah.
Tim Moore: Yes, ma’am.
Dr. Reagan: Well, I was just going to say that one of the major criticisms of those of us who have the viewpoint of eschatology that we do, and I hear it all the time, is that you folks are just focused on heaven. You’re not interested in what’s going on in your society, and you’re doing nothing about it. And you’re just escapist, looking for the day of the Rapture. And you’re virtually no good when it comes to civic matters. And I always respond to that by saying, “Have you ever heard of the fellow who founded Liberty University and formed a Moral Majority in this country? And he held our view of end times? Have you ever heard of Tim LaHaye, who did the same thing, was one of the founders of the Moral Majority? Of his wife, who founded one of the most important women’s organizations in America that was fighting for justice and righteousness. This is just a lie. I look for the Lord to come any day. I’m eternally oriented, but at the same time I am concerned about our society. And Jesus said we’re to stand for righteousness. And if we don’t stand for righteousness, nobody’s going to stand for righteousness.
Jeanne Nigro: That’s exactly right.
Dr. Reagan: And people write me and say, “Well, how do I do that?” I said, “Well, get on your knees and pray and ask God to put a put an issue on your heart because you can’t fight everything.” It may be homosexuality. It may be women who are pregnant outside of marriage. It could be a lot of different things. Have God put the issue on your heart. Then number two, ask Him, what do you want me to do about it? With regard to helping people who are pregnant out of marriage, there are many things you can do, you can demonstrate in front of an abortion factory, or you can write letters to the editor, or you can run for office. There are so many different things.
Tim Moore: You can adopt.
Dr. Reagan: God doesn’t call everybody to do the same thing.
Tim Moore: Exactly right. You know, but God does call even those who are living in pagan lands. I always go back to Jeremiah 29, when Jeremiah, this prophet of doom, said, “Even while you’re living in exile in a pagan land, continue to invest in that society, raise your families, grow your crops, and seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you, even into exile, and pray the Lord on His behalf for in its welfare, you will have welfare.” We are not to check out of the world. We are to be engaged. And yet some again just want to relinquish this realm of human endeavor to oblivion.
You say on page 95 of your book and we’re coming up on an election. So that’s why it’s timely. Timely, you say, “To choose not to vote is actually a sin, because voting is our God given duty as citizens of this republic.” You cite James 4:17, which says, “If anyone then knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.” Have I just summed up the position? What else could you add?
Jeanne Nigro: Yeah, that’s the least we can do is vote. I mean, everybody can vote. We are responsible as citizens of this nation to vote. And actually, I have on the last chapter is the action plan where I give a list of things that people can do for each of these chapters. And I even have lines, just pick even one thing. If there’s one thing that you can do. And it’s amazing, especially with, like I said, with technology, it’s so easy to email or to text.
Dr. Reagan: Yes, it is.
Jeanne Nigro: Or to donate or to knock on doors for someone.
Dr. Reagan: Many people who call themselves conservatives in America are conservatives on financial issues, but when it comes to moral issues, they are not conservative.
Jeanne Nigro: That’s right.
Dr. Reagan: I just got through sending a red hot email to Fox News for the fact that all through the month of June, Fox News for the first time ever started putting on ads celebrating homosexuality in America. And I wrote them and said, Why do you call yourself conservative if you are promoting the sexual perversion movement? I just got through writing them another one because they just got through having they’re having a concert every day by a different musical group. They had a group on that was so vulgar it was absolutely unbelievable that they even had it on TV. And I wrote them, you know, you’re supposed to be a conservative organization. Why do you do this? I don’t ever get an answer.
Jeanne Nigro: That’s an excellent point, they’re very different. When I first started going to a lot of things in D.C., I was shocked because I just thought I was naive and everybody thought like me, if they were conservative and I realized it’s fiscal, not moral.
Dr. Reagan: That’s right, absolutely.
Jeanne Nigro: Many, time, many, many times.
Tim Moore: So, if we proclaim as we do, that the world is only going to grow darker. What is the hope in voting, for instance, in this upcoming election? Every two years we have the opportunity to vote. Is there a perfect candidate or a perfect outcome? Will there be a world changing cataclysmic election where we can finally say, all right, we’ve won and move on? What’s the point if the world is going to grow darker and darker?
Jeanne Nigro: And I think there’s a deception in believing that, oh, if I just vote for this one candidate then everything’s going to be okay, because that’s not biblical, because we know that things are going to get darker. But we also know that we are you know, there’s not a surprise, it’s not a mistake to God that we’re here right now. It’s not a surprise to God. It’s like, well, I had this amazing plan for your life, Tim, but then, you know, things are getting darker in the world, and so now, oops, sorry. You just got to wait till I come back and do nothing. No, you were born for this specific time to be here. How are we going to? We have to partner with Him to release what He wants to do in this world, and advance His righteousness and truth and so forth, or else there will be no light.
Dr. Reagan: The illustration of how important voting is. Look at the appointments that Trump made to the Supreme Court. What if somebody else had been in that position? And look at the appointment that’s just been made of a woman who can’t even define what a woman is.
Tim Moore: I think it’s important that we always remind people, and I would when I ran for office, I was very clear I’m a Christian, I’m a conservative, and then I’m of a particular party, but in that order. I’m a Christian first and foremost, and I was upfront about that. But I told people if I haven’t disappointed you yet, you just haven’t known me long. Ask my wife, she’ll tell you, and she’s known me a long time, many disappointments. But, you know, whether it’s King David, whether its name your favorite president, all of them disappoint us.
You know, Ronald Reagan is one of my favorite presidents of my lifetime. But Ronald Reagan expanded abortion in California, which became a bellwether for the nation. He didn’t intend for that to happen. But the point is, all candidates, every man and woman will fall short of the glory of God. None of us are perfect. But in every election there is a choice. I’m always reminded of a democracy like India, we may have Indian viewers today who are given a choice between a Muslim and a Hindu. Should Christians vote? Well, certainly they should. They should vote for the candidate who most accurately reflects biblical values, or at least will respect Christian’s freedom to worship God in the manner that he’s called them to. And you should do as much good as you can in whatever society, including our own.
Jeanne Nigro: And I shared in the book as well, just from my experience in D.C. that politics, and I knew many, many Christians in politics, but politics, just by the nature of how it’s designed, really brings out the worst in people. And so, I emphasize that everyone is going to let you down no matter who it is when they get in that realm, there’s so much emphasis on raising money. And so, it’s almost like the system itself brings out the worst inside. So, we have to pray for these people that have chosen too, because they have the best intentions often and they get in the system, and it’s just the system is not designed biblically.
Tim Moore: No, ma’am.
Jeanne Nigro: And so, we’ve got to pray for them, give them that grace that they’re even doing it. Because would you do it? Well, you did it in Kentucky Congress. And realize that they’re not the Messiah. And sometimes I think that we are voting as if we’re voting for the Messiah. It’s like, no, we’re voting for who is going to uphold the Constitution the best, and by doing that, they will implement biblical principles.
Tim Moore: Well, Jeanne, thank you for coming and sitting down with us today.
Jeanne Nigro: Thanks for having me, it’s been great.
Tim Moore: It’s been a delight. I hope you’ll come back. Dave, always glad to sit down with you, brother, and share our perspectives.
Jeanne Nigro: You have to come back to you.
Dr. Reagan: And I want to thank you for being with us, and I pray God will continue to magnify your voice.
Tim Moore: Well, as America does anticipate another election this fall, we hope that you too, will take your responsibility as a follower of Jesus Christ to impact the society in which we live, for good. Because in its welfare, God will bless us and use us as conduits of blessing. We will be back again next week, so join us for another episode of Christ in Prophecy. Until then, as always, we say look up and be watchful for Jesus Christ, who is coming soon to reign as our King of Kings and Lord of Lords is coming soon. Godspeed.
Dr. Reagan: Hallelujah.
Jeanne Nigro: Amen. Thank you.
End of Program