What Happens Next with Max Lucado

Max Lucado: Yeah, of course I’ve written much about Heaven, about the imminent return of Christ. But in terms of writing about End Times from a more specific or detailed viewpoint, this is my first book. What happened is our church was studying through the Book of Daniel, I believe it’s been about 12 years now. I love the Book of Daniel. And when we got into the back half, I began learning things that I had never learned. I began finding answers to questions that I had never had answers for.

Also, our church was excited about what we were studying and I saw the power of fulfilled prophecy to change lives. And so, I returned to that subject on a personal level, reading books on End Times, listening to podcasts and messages, because my particular background is not what we call dispensational. I was taught in the seminary where I studied, and also in the ancestry of my faith to believe that most of the teaching about End Times is allegorical. I did not believe in a literal thousand year reign of Christ. I did not believe that Israel had a, geographic Israel had a future in the plan of God, that the Church had replaced Israel.

And so, these are somewhat common teachings in certain circles of the Church. But I began to question those and I thought, that’s just not right. I think that there’s much more to be said here. And so personally, I began to learn. I found how that excited my faith. I came back to the Church and presented a series of messages following the eternal timeline of Heaven, starting in the Book of Genesis, ending up in the eternal state that awaits us all. And that series of sermons was also really well-received. And I thought, okay, I’m going to see if I can turn this into a book.

But I think it’s particularly helpful as a kind of a 101 End Times book. Since it was new territory for me, then I feel like I’m speaking to people who are also in that same boat, that same situation who are saying, I’d love somebody just to give me a kind of a primer, an introduction to what God’s eternal plan is through what we call a dispensational viewpoint, that is to say through these different eras of history. Long answer to your very good question.

Tim Moore: Well, no, that’s a very good answer. My own background, I don’t think I had any set theology of the End Times because it was just ignored in my growing up years. I was faithful at church, my family every Sunday, but we never heard about Bible prophecy. I would take it from your description that you gained an appreciation for things to come, not because of what you’ve been taught, as you said, the foundation of your faith, but because you opened the book and as it illuminated itself as the Holy Spirit that guided you, God’s Word revealed itself to you. And that’s even why we call the last book The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is His unveiling of what is to come. And I’m so glad that your heart was receptive to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Max Lucado: Well, even though the ancestry of my faith did not teach Bible prophecy, I was taught to respect Scripture and to leave my heart open to further teaching and revelation from the Holy Spirit. And so for that reason, I’m very, very grateful. And of course, out of my ancestry of faith or the tradition where I was, that’s where I became a Christian. I’ll forever be grateful for that.

Tim Moore: Of course.

Max Lucado: So, I think it’s a healthy posture to take as Christians that we’re always learning. We don’t become so rigid in our beliefs that there’s not a space for an added understanding or increased knowledge.

Tim Moore: Right.

Max Lucado: We don’t have to be dogmatic, but we can be open to what further truth the Lord wants to teach us.

Tim Moore: Well, from your study and from the book you wrote, as you see the world today, a quarter of the way through the 21st century, for goodness’ sake, do you think we are living in the End Times?

Max Lucado: I do. I do. I believe we’re in the end of the End Times. I believe that a real page of eternal history was turned in May of 1948 when Israel was reconstituted as a geographical nation. God’s plan from the very beginning was that he would bless the world through the children of Israel. And I believe He is still fulfilling that promise. And what happened when Israel became a nation again set in motion the possibility for a chain of events that is absolutely crucial and appears so often in Scripture. And of course, what is happening right now in the Mid East with Israel being surrounded by so many enemies with even Syria, even as we’re recording this, watching the hour by hour development of what’s happening in Damascus.

Tim Moore: Right.

Max Lucado: And some of those fulfilled prophecies. The antisemitism that’s once again rearing itself around the world, which I think is totally demonic. There’s no justification for this hostility toward the Jews, except that it comes from the devil himself. So many of these things, the list could go on and on.

Tim Moore: You know, you’ve keyed even in that answer, the importance of Israel and indeed specifically Jerusalem. You brought that out in your book very clearly. And for the last number of years since the reestablishment of Israel, we’ve seen how the whole world’s focus seems to be narrowing down on the Jewish state time and time again. Right now, even as we are changing presidential administrations, we see that Israel continues to be at the forefront of the news day by day. Do you think that is also an indicator that we are living in the End Times?

Max Lucado: Well, I do. I do. I never could get my head around the Book of Revelation. I would try to, and it just… if it’s allegorical then I just felt like I was turning from one metaphor to another, to another, to another. But now that I have come to a different understanding, especially of the millennium, millennial kingdom, and then the seven year Tribulation, I see that what will happen after the Rapture during those seven years and the Earth is in turmoil, God will use the nation of Israel.

He’ll use the nation of Israel; it seems to me as a great source of evangelism and that teaching of the 144,000 Jews makes sense to me now because God will use them. And again, that promise made to Abraham, even when he was Abraham, that God would bless the Earth through the descendants. Yes, that happened with all the prophets and the preachers and with New Testament, the Old Testament, of course, with our blessed savior, Jesus Christ. But that’s not over yet. There’s a great blessing through Israel that will come during that time of tribulation. But for that to happen, Israel has to exist as a nation in order for the antichrist to set up that covenant with the children of Israel. Israel has to exist as a nation.

And so there are a variety of things that could only happen if Israel existed as a nation. I’m sympathetic with the hundreds of years of prophetic study that our ancestors had once they would read these prophecies and say, “Well, that’s never going to happen.” So, the outcome of that probably was some form of amillennialism. But now that it has happened it’s brought into focus. And so yeah, I think kind of rambling on this answer, but I get excited when I think of… I’ve always had a love for Israel. I think you as well.

Tim Moore: Yes.

Max Lucado: And I never could quite explain it. I’ve made over a dozen trips to Israel and when I would plane in Israel, even early in my life, I would, this is love I have for thee, more than just when you get off a plane in Madrid or Buenos Aires, but there’s something special about God’s covenant with the Jewish people.

Tim Moore: Well, I’ll tell you what, you brought to light some of the insights that I think others have touched on, but you really clarify them, as you say, brought them into focus. A couple of different points in your book, you talked about the four covenants, covenant God made with Adam and Eve to provide a reign and a rule for mankind. The covenant with Abraham to have seed or many descendants and soil, a land that was promised to him and his children, specifically his heretical children. And then David, a promise for a forever throne and a king that will reign on that forever throne.

And finally, Jeremiah and I loved how you used Jeremiah as the exemplar of the promise, the covenant for these people, the Jewish people to return and to experience revival. They were not cast aside. So those four covenants continue to be born out today, we’re still awaiting the final fulfillment of the promise, for instance, to David, that he would have a forever king on the throne of David reigning there in Jerusalem. But it encapsulates the entirety of what God has promised to the Jewish people and then what we can see even as followers of Christ today.

Max Lucado: Hmm. I love that. Thanks for giving that summary. I think those, our God is a covenant-keeping God, right? He’s a covenant-keeping God. If there was one thing that I discovered in my reading that I thought might have been under in the other books and material that was so very, very helpful is the role of the Book of Genesis in prophecy. The story of the Creation, the role of Adam and Eve in Paradise. And beginning to see that’s not a story just of what happened then, but that’s a promise of what will happen again.

Tim Moore: Amen.

Max Lucado: Because our God who knows the end from the beginning helps us say, well, if you want to know the end, then go to the beginning.

Tim Moore: There you go.

Max Lucado: And you look at Adam and Eve and their relationship with our Father, which was so beautiful and pure, they could walk together in the cool of the evening, their relationship with one another. There was no shame or embarrassment. Their relationship with nature in which they were overseeing, they were in charge, they were reigning with God, they were co-regents with God over Creation. But we do not see that today. Much of our world is separated from God where you’re hostile toward each other and we can’t even get fish to bite, much less obey.

Tim Moore: Exactly, right.

Max Lucado: That day will come, a day will come in which what was promised through Adam and Eve will be seen in our lives. I do not believe that God fails to keep His promises. He’s a promise-keeping God. So, I know you’re a pilot. I would love to be a pilot. I actually took 20 hours and tried to learn to fly but it’s a long story. I developed some heart problems. Can’t pass the medical. So I had to bail that dream. But I learned what a, and check me on this, on this little illustration, but see if it works. Is it called a vector when you set the cruise, we call it cruise control in a car?

Tim Moore: Yes, sir. The autopilot, yes.

Max Lucado: The autopilot and it takes you from vector, to vector, to vector, till you work your way to the destination.

Tim Moore: Yes, sir.

Max Lucado: I see these covenants as kind of like vectors. God has set them, he has set history on that course and we are moving from one to the other, to the other, to the other. It has been predetermined. This isn’t something God is making up as He’s going along. It’s been predetermined what comfort this brings to the person who’s weary with the condition of the world or fearful of the future of the world. I know it can be tough, but we serve a great God who will keep His covenants and He has set this history already determined at these way points along the way.

Tim Moore: Well, I’ll tell you what, so many examples of beautiful analogies like that, that you bring out in your book. You made a dramatic point. This is on page 35 for those who are going to get your book and read it. But you talk about God’s covenant with Jeremiah and the replacement theologians who would say, no, God’s done with the Jewish people. Ignore the very word when the Lord says, “Days are coming when I will make a new covenant.”

Now, we hear a lot about the new covenant being Christians of the New Testament, but He says, “It’s going to be a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.” But you also point out, and this is so beautiful on page 32, that Israel is an example, or today would stand as what you call a billboard of grace. That’s a tremendously powerful metaphor because you said there was grace given to them. There is grace demonstrated through them, and there is grace extended to the entire world because of the Jewish people and because of Israel.

Max Lucado: Yeah, you know, I don’t know why God chose the Jewish people, but He did. It’s not because they’re special or different, but boy, He has blessed them. He has blessed them.

Tim Moore: Well, and I would dare say He’s blessed them at times in spite of themselves. But you know what, that’s the same model, He blesses me, Pastor, He blesses you in spite of myself, in spite of yourself. That’s the Good News of the Gospel right there.

Max Lucado: You just gave me goosebumps because the second part of that, I don’t know why God chose them, but I don’t know why He chose me, right? But He does in His sovereign grace, and I believe that’s His message through the children of Israel, is that God chooses to get, use imperfect people to declare the perfect promise of God that is to redeem us and use us forever and ever.

Tim Moore: Amen. Amen. Well, I love it. Again, grace to them inspire themselves, grace through them to the world. And that’s how even your writing, our efforts at Lamb & Lion Ministries is to be a conduit, a blessing. And then grace to the world, yes, warning in these days and hours that the world is coming to an end. And so, we should flee from the wrath to come and into the loving arms of our Savior. You know, one of the things that you outlined, and I thought this was so very powerful because it’s an acrostic that I think resonates. Max, you said that there were five reasons that you embraced a pre-millennial rapture viewpoint. And you said it was based on power. Do you remember what those words were?

Max Lucado: Well, I’m a preacher through and through, right? I have acrostics for everything. But really the reason I do that is because I tend to forget things. But P-O-W-E-R helps me remember.

Tim Moore: Yes.

Max Lucado: How I moved into a belief of a more literal interpretation, especially of Revelation 20. So, the reason I believe in a literal thousand year reign, whereas for many years I taught a symbolic or that we’re in that reign of Christ now. Number one, and that is the promises that we’ve already looked at in our conversation today. The covenants that God made that have yet to be completely fulfilled. Number two, Revelation 20 speaks of the overthrow of Satan during that time, during that thousand year reign or during that reign of Christ. I do not believe Satan is overthrown in our world today.

Tim Moore: No.

Max Lucado: He seems to be alive and well. Word for word interpretation of Scripture. If I’m correct, I think it’s six times in Revelation 20 the Revelator John refers to a thousand year period of time. And so it makes sense to me if he says it’s six times using a thousand, the number a thousand. Why not take it more literally, a word for word interpretation? A convincing reason for me was E, early church fathers, early church fathers. The vast majority of early church fathers were pre-millennial in their interpretation, one of whom was a student of the Apostle John himself. Papias was his name. And what an extraordinary thought to think that the student of John was a believer in the literal thousand year reign of Christ. That’s almost enough by itself to convince me.

And the last reason is the R, resurrections. That passage in Revelation 20 speaks of two of them, one at the beginning and one at the end. One for those tribulation saints and then those revelation at the end of the thousand year for the wicked. And they will appear before God in judgment. So P-O-W-E-R and to me that was a real turning point in my faith, in my understanding of End Times, because if there is a thousand year reign of Christ, then that means that the saints who are in Paradise right now have to come back down to Earth because we’re going to reign with Him.

Tim Moore: Yes.

Max Lucado: And if we have come down to Earth, we will go up from Earth in the Rapture. So, I guess I could say that a sequence began to fit together. And when I came to an understanding of the literal millennium, that was kind of a keystone in that sequence.

Tim Moore: Well, again, the fact that you let Scripture inform your understanding is so powerful. I tell people Revelation is the only book that promises a blessing just for reading or hearing and for heeding it. And the key to heeding it is first of all believing it. Dr. Henry Morris once said, “Revelation isn’t hard to understand, it’s hard to believe.” But if you’ll believe it, you’ll begin to understand it. Well, I won’t even tell our viewers or ask you to recount the five reasons you cite for the Tribulation. That’s a very powerful insight. But I want to give them a very hopeful note. You talk about the five crowns that any follower of Christ can have. What are those five crowns, Pastor?

Max Lucado: Oh my goodness. You’re going to test my memory here, my brother.

Tim Moore: Well, a crown of self-control, a crown of influence, a crown of life, a crown of righteousness, a crown of glory. One of those crowns is tied to our anticipation of the Lord’s soon return.

Max Lucado: For those who are looking toward His return, a blessed hope of Jesus and His return, a special reward or award, a crown will be given to those. I believe all this happens while we are in the presence of Christ before the millennium begins. We will be rewarded by Christ. And you will be, brother. I can’t wait to be there and watch Jesus give you your well done, good and faithful servant. And of course we will, none of us will feel worthy.

Tim Moore: No.

Max Lucado: We’ll be among those who remove our crowns and place them at the feet of Christ because there’s only one Heaven in Heaven worthy of a crown and it’s not yours and it’s not mine.

Tim Moore: It’s not mine for sure. As a matter of fact, Pastor, I’ve said when they say, all right, saints gather around, it’s time to cast our crowns. I don’t want to be empty-headed. I’ve been accused of that in the past. But in Heaven, I don’t want to be empty-headed. I want to have a crown and I want to have multiple crowns to give back to Jesus as a form of worship. And so again, I may be empty-headed now according to some, I don’t want to be empty-headed then.

Max Lucado: Never heard that. That’s a wonderful way to put it.

Tim Moore: Well, I tell you what, you bring out other truths. You talked about the men of Issachar whose Scripture says in 1 Chronicles, “Understood the times and determined how to live in them.” We often speak at our program, Christ in Prophecy, about the Signs of the Times. And Jesus had some very sharp words for the Pharisees who He said, you don’t even… You understand the signs of the weather but you don’t understand the Signs of the Times. I think He would expect those of us who are following Him to be discerning and yes; to study His words so we would recognize the Signs of the Times. But even as we continue to serve Him and He tarries, we know how to live, we live faithfully heeding His instructions and sharing the Good News to all we can.

Max Lucado: You know, a study of End Times is not escapism. Not at all.

Tim Moore: No.

Max Lucado: In fact, it equips us. It equips us to face what we’re going through. The Christian is forever saying, okay, this is a hard time but Jesus said it would happen. Jesus told us about this. He warned us. He said there would be wars and rumors of wars, that there would be pestilences, that there would be weather patterns. He told us this would happen. And so, we can even knowing that, to say okay, I’m expecting then some things are going to get rocky before the end comes but that’s all right because Christ has declared His sovereign control over every detail, even the difficult ones of human nature.

Tim Moore: Amen and amen. Well, you have a tremendous quote toward the end of your book where you talk about a group of legislators. Of course, I used to be in the Kentucky legislature who feared that perhaps the end was at hand because the sky grew dark. And one man said I don’t know if the end is at hand, I’m paraphrasing, but I will quote this. He said, “Regardless of whether today is the day, I chose to be found doing my duty.” And I think as Christians, even as we proclaim the soon return of Christ, we need to keep doing our duty, which is serving Him faithfully, again, sharing the Gospel, loving others, and being ambassadors for Christ in this darkening age.

Max Lucado: Let it activate greater commitment to sharing the Gospel, greater purity knowing that we will see Christ, let us purify ourselves as He is pure. You know, I want Christ when He returns to find me in a state of obedience not disobedience.

Tim Moore: Amen. Yes, sir.

Max Lucado: And so, the understanding to fix our mind on the return of Christ, to fix our thoughts on Heaven, that’s good for us. That’s good for us. I read once it’s the green vegetable for the soul. It makes us healthy.

Tim Moore: Yes, sir.

Max Lucado: Nothing helps us face the challenges more of this day than the beauty that awaits us in the next day.

Tim Moore: To sum up for any pastors who might be watching and who have not yet embraced as you have their own sense of the Lord’s soon return, why would you say, what word of encouragement would you give to them as to why is important for pastors and Bible teachers to preach about Israel and the End Times, the soon return of Christ?

Max Lucado: Yeah, I would say, first of all, it can be confusing. I did post on maxlucado.com a particular kind of a town hall event in which we walk people through the timeline of history and we try to answer some tough questions because I’m trying to help pastors and I know your ministry is dedicated to helping people understand. And so, you might check out that resource.

Tim Moore: We will.

Max Lucado: And yet, I think that talking about End Times, number one, helps people understand this crazy world in which we live. Number two, it gives them a higher respect for Scripture because they’re seeing prophecies fulfilled right before their eyes. And then number three, it is a very evangelistic message. You invite your church to invite their friends because we’re going to talk about what’s about to happen in history. Boy, the people will perk up.

Tim Moore: Yes.

Max Lucado: And when people understand that a great eternal joy awaits the saved but serious separation from God for eternity awaits those who reject Him, then you’re doing a lot more than just helping them manage their money. You’re helping them make decisions that will equip them to face God in eternity.

Max Lucado: And that is the most important decision they can make. I tell people if they even think, well, I’ll put off that decision. Brother, I’ll tell you, choosing not to decide is already making a choice. And you may not have another day to make the right decision. Well, Pastor, many of our viewers will be eager to know, what project are you working on now? What’s your next book?

Tim Moore: I have a book coming in 2025 based on the life of Elijah. It’s called Take Courage. It’s to help us have faith when we feel outnumbered. Elijah was in a time in the history of Israel that was very secular and God sent him into a very secular society and the result was revival. What did Elijah do right and what can we learn from that? It’s called Take courage. That’s not till 2025 though.

Max Lucado: Well, you’ve given me courage and our viewers today just with your passion for the Lord’s coming and the revelation that was illuminating your heart as you studied His Word. So, we are going to encourage our readers to get a copy of What Happens Next. Pastor Lucado, you’ve been a blessing for many years. Today you’re an extra special blessing to connect with me and our viewers on Christ in Prophecy. Thank you so much, sir.

Max Lucado: Thank you. And all the very best.

Tim Moore: Godspeed! Well folks, that’s it for today’s episode of Christ in Prophecy. I hope you’ll join us next week and I hope you will get a copy of What Happens Next because soon and very soon, our great God and Savior, our King of kings is coming. Godspeed!

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