Wolves Guarding the Flock

Interview with Megan Basham

Tim Moore: Megan, welcome to Christ in Prophecy. I’ve been looking forward to our conversation for some time.

Megan Basham: Well, thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be here.

Tim Moore: So what spurred you to write this book right now? Is there a dramatic rise in apostasy among evangelical pastors? Are you sounding an alarm before the falling away becomes widespread?

Megan Basham: Well, you know, I think like a lot of people over 2019, 2020, I started to feel some disquiet in the various spheres of church life that we experience every day. My kids’ Christian school, the church that we were members of at the time, and a little bit in my work with World, there was just, you started to see promotion of ideas that, to me, didn’t always feel biblical, and by the way, when I talk about World, because you are a fan, I always want to preface it by saying they’ve done a wonderful job addressing those issues, but, like many evangelical institutions, was impacted by a lot of these ideas that were swirling in church culture.

And to give you just one example, the church that we were at at the time, in 2020, for example, sent out an email from the children’s ministry director about how we could talk to our kids about white privilege, and so I think like a lot of people, a lot of Christians, in that period of time, I just started to feel some alarm at what I was seeing and started to look into it, and because I’m a journalist, started to write about it.

Tim Moore: Well, Megan, your subtitle actually conveys the contemporary path too many evangelical leaders have followed, embracing a radical leftist ideology that is actually at odds with a biblical worldview and even the Gospel, but isn’t the tendency for people to prefer the worldly to the godly age old?

Megan Basham: Yeah, I think it’s a way to be less distinct as the Church, and often, when we are less distinct, we feel more comfortable. We don’t want to stand out from our neighbors and our culture, and I think that’s a big part of what we were seeing is how churches and institutions wanted to adopt progressive priorities and give them churchy names and use churchy lingo and talking about them in a way to align with the culture so that we wouldn’t stand out.

Tim Moore: You offer compelling historical examples. For instance, the effort by Joseph Stalin to leverage American pastors as agents of his propaganda campaign, and ironically shifting their position 180 degrees once World War II began, but various European monarchs also found faithful evangelical Christians to be troublers to their imperial agenda, including King James of the King James Version.

Megan Basham: And that was really important to me to lay out some historical context, because I think when we hear these things in our modern context, it can feel a little conspiracy theorist even when you’re laying out a lot of the resources and research and citations. Understandably, people are uncomfortable believing that there are secular infiltrators trying to gain access to churches and to the people in those churches, and so that was part of why I wanted to open the book by laying out that historical background so that people could see, look, this is nothing new. This is something that Christians in every era have had to contend with and we still have to contend with it today.

Tim Moore: So what are some of the cultural issues and secular agendas that are being prioritized over biblical teachings today?

Megan Basham: So, throughout the book, I lay out a number of issues and I would put them into two categories. One is the debatable category, and those are issues that Christians can in good faith disagree on what, say, our national policy should be, something like immigration. I think that’s something that we can disagree on. My critique focuses on how these ministries and evangelical institutions are abusing Scripture in order to avoid having that debate and to suggest that being a faithful Christian means that you must support something like, say, a pathway to citizenship, when there is a legitimate argument over whether that encourages more illegal immigration.

So that was one category of issue, and then the other category of issue are those that are unquestionably biblical, but the language is being softened and the way it’s being presented is being done in a deceptive way so that Christians will welcome people into their midst, I think it’s fair to say wolves into their midst, without giving the correct scrutiny to the curriculum, to the teaching, and that kind of issue would be, for example, the LGBTQ movement, and it has made significant inroads into churches and ministries.

And so those were the two kinds of categories that I used, examining how does the Church talk about issues that are complex and that we can have good faith disagreement on, and how is it talking about issues where we are simply accepting unbiblical standards because that is, right now, the worldly position to take?

Tim Moore: Well, we could really get down into the weeds as we start to pull out loose strands of wool in the wolf’s false sheepskin, but what are some of the examples that jump out at you, whether it’s racial justice, social justice, environmental justice, or climate change, or all the left’s agenda items today?

Megan Basham: I mean, you mentioned climate change, and that’s a great example. You know, I think it’s something that everyone can disagree on whether or not humans are having a significant impact on the weather and the temperature outside, and I think we can still be Christians and have a disagreement on that.

But what we were seeing and what we have been seeing is seminaries bringing in quote-unquote Creation care initiatives, and what they are saying is that to be faithful to the Gospel requires Christians now to take up the issue of climate change because that is part of how we show that we care for Creation, and it’s a very spiritually manipulative approach, and I would say it’s very legalistic because we are adding rules onto the Gospel that the Lord has not put there, and so that was something that I covered in depth.

And something else just to really quickly be aware of is that these things are, in many cases, not happening organically. You had large hard left secular foundations deliberately funneling money into ministry front groups in order to move evangelicals on this issue and convinced them that being a faithful Christian meant that they needed to become climate change activists. So that’s what is really important to know is that, yes, in some cases, this is organic, but in a lot of cases, it’s also being very much orchestrated from the outside.

Tim Moore: Regarding abortion, Catholics were the first to take a hard pro-life stance. We can all recognize that Pope Francis has undermined much of the clarity in the Catholic position, but we can also see that many evangelicals have come around to embrace pro-life advocacy, from conception to natural death. There is even growing recognition that IVF technology comes with perilous moral realities, since untold numbers of conceived children are abandoned in the process, but some are going wobbly, as Margaret Thatcher would say, after the Democratic Party declared that it intended to make abortion its unquestionable mantra in the 2024 election. Where do you see the Evangelical Church today?

Megan Basham: Well, part of what’s been so concerning to me on the issue of life is how we have now started to redefine what being pro-life means in order to encompass just about any, you know, issue or cause that we think is positive. So we talked about racial justice a moment ago, and you saw a lot of well-known Evangelical leaders throwing racial justice into the basket of pro-life, so that that’s now a pro-life issue, or immigration is now a pro-life issue, and so these things, even if you believe they are a moral good to take some of these stances, what it does is it dilutes the power of the pro-life movement, and it also takes it from being something that’s very clear, that we are standing against the murder of the unborn, because that is something that should be outlawed.

A moral nation recognizes in its law that we should not murder a child in the womb, and instead it’s being repackaged as sort of a social safety net issue, saying, “Well, instead of having this moral clarity, let’s say that we are going to, in so many ways, create entitlements that make it so that women don’t feel like they want to get abortions.” Well, there’s a number of issues with that stance. One is that that was attempted in Black communities over decades, and we have seen, in fact, what that’s done is destroy marriage in Black communities in many cases so that Black citizens are now the least likely to be married. So it has not had a good impact.

So why would we expand that further to, you know, other spheres of our culture and our society? But then, right, and so anyway, the issue is that they have taken something that had such moral force in the culture and diluted it to mean anything, and once you do that, it makes it much less persuasive as a cultural argument.

Tim Moore: Megan, the title of your book clearly insinuates that many shepherds have sold out. They have been bought and paid for by secular foundations, think tanks, and even leftist billionaires. You assert that, “In exchange for towing a left-wing line, many of those church leaders and institutions have received cash, career jumps, prestige, and praise.” Tell us about the money trail you’ve discovered, the tactics involved, and the goal of those who would co-opt, undermine, or silence American pulpits.

Megan Basham: Well, you know, what was so fascinating to me when I really started to dig into this research was that, in many cases, these secular foundations, these secular billionaires would openly talk about their aims to co-opt Evangelical Churches to promote their political aims, and in a sense, you kind of had to appreciate the transparency because it made my job very easy. When you find memos from George Soros’ Open Society Foundation where directors of his programs are saying, “Well, you know, our problem really is that we keep running into these Evangelicals and the fact that religious life is so important in America, and so since we’re not going to be able to overcome that, what we’re going to have to do is find a way to repackage our ideas to harness the power of churches.”
So what you found then were organizations, and George Soros, you know, that’s the famous name, so you tend to go to it, but he is, you know, certainly not the only one. There are many other foundations, The Hewlett Foundation, The Tides Foundation, The Rockefeller Foundation. I talk about many of them in the book because what they have done is create these Evangelical front groups. They funneled money into organizations that then create quote-unquote ministries with Evangelical in the title, like Evangelical Climate Initiative, Evangelical Immigration Table, things of that nature, so that they say, “Look, we’re one of you,” and they hire people who are well known in Evangelical circles and they then put out curriculum and talking points and they send out mobilizers to go into churches to get them to take up this issue for the explicit purpose of moving policy.

And I think that’s something that’s really important to know that, in all of these cases, whether it’s immigration policy or climate change policy or LGBTQ policy, their purpose is to get evangelicals to tell conservative lawmakers, “We want you to take this position on this piece of legislation or this bill.” So it’s not something where they’re just trying to persuade to a set of ideas. It has a very specific political purpose.

Tim Moore: You know, many of our viewers may have misgivings or gnawing concerns about a pastor or leader that they know personally, but like a frog in a pot, they hate to make waves or jump out even as the water grows warmer and hotter.

As an airplane pilot, I can tell you that pilots don’t typically veer off course in a single dramatic moment. The bank is so shallow and the turn is so subtle that they are heading in the wrong direction long before they realize it.

Megan, your book makes very clear a distinction between the rank and file who won’t get with the program of the progressives and leftists as opposed to certain high-profile leaders. I would only counter that the rise of the nones and the growing ignorance among the followers of Christ about the doctrinal truths of Scripture is growing painfully apparent. Barna has estimated that as few as 4% of professing Christians actually hold to a biblical worldview.

So what are some of the sure signs you would advise people to look for, alerting them to the looming threat?

Megan Basham: Well, one of the things that is certainly a red flag is if your church is bringing in curriculum and Bible study teaching and its purpose is to specifically promote political legislation or bills where the Bible isn’t clear, because we can certainly say that the Bible is very clear on the issue of the sanctity of life or the sanctity of marriage or that homosexuality is a sin, but if they’re bringing in Bible study curriculum on unclear issues and using Bible verses in a very sort of cheap sloganeering way, like “love your neighbor, back The Lankford Immigration Bill,” then I think that should be a red flag that, you know, maybe your church is being used in ways that are not meant for godly purposes. It’s not meant to build up the Kingdom, but it’s meant to promote someone’s political purposes.
So that’s one thing, I would say. Another thing is, if you’re looking at these verses that are being used to say “we need to support climate change initiatives,” I would really encourage you to consider, is there another point of view on this? And search out other resources, other biblical resources, other godly voices to see that, you know, perhaps there are other ways to look at what Creation means and what does stewardship of Creation mean, and if your church is only bringing in one side of that debatable issue, I would say that’s a red flag.

But also I do want to tell everyone who listens to me, because I have a great story in my book about, and I opened my book with it, about a couple who were trying to find a solid biblical church, and everywhere they went, they kind of found these very insidious worldly political agendas coming in, but they settled at a church where it was still absorbing some of those ideas, and yet I think the pastor had the best of intentions, and through some calm, reasoned, respectful but challenging conversations, my friend was able to get this pastor to see that, gosh, you know, maybe we shouldn’t be bringing in this “be the bridge” curriculum that heavily promotes CRT. Maybe that’s creating division.

Now, at the time, people really weren’t aware of it, and so he was able to sound the alarm and he was able to persuade his pastor that, hey, I don’t think this is a godly influence on our church, and we can’t expect pastors to know everything about every piece of curriculum. I hope that they’re discerning, but we’re all fallible in many ways. So mostly what I would say is that, when you see it, be willing to have respectful conversations with your church leadership and don’t just ignore it.

Tim Moore: You describe the effort to sway evangelicals as astroturfing. What does that mean and how can we guard against it?

Megan Basham: So astroturfing is when a secular organization will take hold of Christian terminology and Christian institutions to create the appearance of a grassroots movement. So, essentially, what they will do is use like an Evangelical influencer, someone who’s well known, to put out statements, to give the appearance that all Evangelicals agree with this point of view, and that it’s very clear what the Bible has to say on that.

And its purpose is to try to not just convince, but I would say shame other Christians into thinking, “Well, I don’t want to speak up because I don’t want to be over here all alone by myself when everyone else tends to agree with this particular point of view.” So, really, it’s a form of peer pressure.

Tim Moore: In the recent presidential election, the secular left tried to dissuade evangelicals from voting or attempted to sway them into supporting a so-called progressive agenda. What did you see at play between the parties and how do you think evangelical Christians should engage in our system of government?

Megan Basham: Well, you know, I think like so many Christians, I’m terribly aggrieved about what the GOP decided to do with this year’s platform in minimizing its language on the sanctity of marriage, being between one man and one woman. I’m deeply aggrieved that they removed a very clear pro-life plank in this platform. Now, I have talked to a lot of Capitol Hill staffers who are telling me, “Oh, it’s still kind of there. It’s just, you know, you have to read between the lines.” Right, so that is all incredibly disappointing.

So the one thing I think we have to do is make it very clear to the right that we are not going away on this issue and we are not going to be quiet about this issue. I very much want to see that, and I think, in a lot of encouraging ways, we are seeing that. So I see a lot of Christian leaders saying, “We still expect representation as a pro-life party,” and they are pushing for that. Now, it may be a fight and we have been here before, but it’s something that we will have to continue to do in a culture that, to be blunt, loves death.

And so on the other side of the issue, I also think that we are blessed to live in a representative republic, and unlike the first-century Christians, we have a say in our form of government, and that is something that the Lord has given us to steward, and I don’t think that our response should be to squander that resource and squander that stewardship. So I think, at the same time, we also have to, like wise citizens, make the very best decisions that we can to promote those causes that lead to a just and moral society. So I’m never an advocate for sitting out and I’m never an advocate for being quiet on the clear moral issues.

Tim Moore: We’ve already addressed whether the trends are organic or orchestrated, so let’s get to a bottom line. You pose a question in your introduction regarding the false shepherds. Are they dupes or deceivers? Based on your own research, how would you answer that question? And, again, if it comes down to individual shepherds, how do we discern on a case by case basis?

Megan Basham: So I’d probably say maybe not a 50-50 split, but maybe a 60% dupes and maybe a 40% deceivers. I think there’s very much both happening in the Church and that’s part of what makes it really hard to deal with this issue is because you want to be charitable and you don’t want to assume that someone is a wolf and that they’re deliberately deceiving you, but I think what we can do is say, when someone has perhaps even demonstrated themself to be a dupe on a number of occasions for left-wing priorities, at that point, does that individual still meet the requirements of leadership? And I would say no.

So, at that point, I may not be willing to say, “Oh, this particular pastor is definitely a wolf, is a deceiver.” I worked very hard to avoid naming anyone one or the other because I can’t read people’s hearts, but I do think it’s reasonable to say we have seen a pattern of a lack of discernment, and at that point, some of these leaders who have repeatedly done this no longer meet the standard for leading any Christian institution.

Tim Moore: Megan, thank you again for spending time with us on Christ in Prophecy. I have to tell you that, as a former, or I could say recovering legislator, I ascribe to Abraham Kuyper’s perspective on the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of Christians in this world. “There is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is sovereign over all, does not cry, ‘Mine!'” Until He comes, may we be about His work, and when He comes, may He find us still faithful.

Megan Basham: Thank you and amen!

Part 3

Tim Moore: The response from viewers all across the nation to our original series on cults, false prophets, and demonic deceptions was overwhelming. Clearly, all of us know someone who has been led astray by wolves in sheep’s clothing or who is dabbling in deception, but we are not without hope.

Megan Basham’s book cites J. Gresham Machen, who fought a similar battle against liberalism within the church 100 years ago. Machen said, “The present time is not for ease or pleasure, but for earnest and prayerful work. A present crisis unquestionably has arisen in the Church, yet there is in the Christian life no room for despair. Laymen, as well as ministers, should return, in these trying days, with new earnestness, to the study of the Word of God. If the Word of God be heeded, the Christian battle will be fought both with love and with fruitfulness. Every man must decide upon which side he will stand. God grant that we may decide aright. What the immediate future may bring, we cannot presume to say. The final result indeed is clear. God has not deserted His church.”

Nathan Jones: Shepherds For Sale clearly highlights the pattern within the Church where some shepherds have become either dupes or deceivers themselves. Aspiring to be embraced by the world, they have allowed false doctrine to infiltrate and confuse their flock.

Tim Moore: We cannot know the heart of every person who claims to follow Christ or of every pastor who purports to feed his sheep. Nathan and I have both known shepherds who have resisted feeding their flocks from the whole Word of God, specifically resisting any message that points to Jesus’ return, soon or otherwise, and we’ve seen corrupted fruit that clearly is not produced from the clear application of the Gospel, but springs from the pollution that is rampant in our world.

We know that Satan is behind all the deception. He was present in the Garden of Eden to question God’s clear instruction and impugn His goodness. He is assisted by demonic hordes that beguile men and women into rebellion against God, and his evil schemes are supported by many who are deceived and some who are active deceivers in their own right.

Nathan Jones: Well, just like us, Satan sees the signs of the times. He knows his time is short, and so he is lying and enticing and deceiving with even greater urgency and boldness, hoping to steal, kill, and destroy. Well, tragically, many people are embracing these deceptive tactics, accepting the lies that permeate our society. Souls hang in the balance.

Conclusion

Tim Moore: Scripture tells us that, in the End Times, some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. Our mission at Lamb & Lion Ministries is clear. We proclaim the soon return of Jesus Christ, urging those who are perishing to flee from the wrath to come and into the loving arms of our Savior, and we urge followers of Christ to boldly share the Gospel while there is still time. Lead holy lives and be watchful for our blessed hope.

We have bathed this program in prayer and we’ll be glad to join with you personally in prayer, asking God that many will be let out of darkness and into the marvelous light of Jesus Christ. Please reach out to us. As a faith-based ministry, we need your prayers and your support to fulfill a mission the Lord has called us to. Godspeed!

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