How is the Emergent Church Movement really Eastern mysticism? Find out with guest Caryl Matrisciana on the show Christ in Prophecy.
Last aired on October 16, 2011.
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Dr. Reagan: The Bible prophesizes that in the End Times Christianity will come under increasing persecution, that prophecy is being fulfilled today. All across the world millions of Christians are being verbally abused, physically harassed, and yes, even murdered for their faith. But these attacks as terrible as they maybe are not the greatest threat to the Church. The greatest threat comes from within the Church in the form of Apostasy. Stay tuned as we talk with one of Christendom’s foremost authorities about the raging spiritual apostasy that exists in the Church today.
Dr. Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus our blessed hope and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. Once again this week for the third week in a row we have as our special guest a wonderful lady named Caryl Matrisciana who is considered to be one of Christendom’s foremost experts on Eastern Religions, contemporary cults, and Christian apostasy. Caryl is a documentary film producer from California, over the past 30 years she has produced over 60 videos concerning false religions, cults and apostasy. Caryl welcome back.
Caryl Matrisciana: Well thank you.
Dr. Reagan: It sounds like you have been awfully busy, that’s an average of two a year.
Caryl Matrisciana: And I started so young. Three a year.
Dr. Reagan: Okay. Well also here in the studio with me to help me interview Caryl is our Web Minister Nathan Jones. Nathan is involved in battling apostasy on a daily basis as he talks back and forth via our website with people literally all over the world concerning both Bible Prophecy and the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Nathan how about kicking off our discussion?
Nathan Jones: I would be delighted to, thanks Dave. And I am delighted to have you back, you are a great guest.
Caryl Matrisciana: Thank you, thank you so much Nathan.
Nathan Jones: Well let’s start our discussion with talking about the health of Evangelical Christianity today. And even the word Evangelical I know when I was little and growing up the word evangelical meant you went to the Bible for your faith what was truth and all that. But the word evangelical seems to be losing its meaning in this day and age, would you agree?
Caryl Matrisciana: Absolutely because we are in what is called a post-modern era, post-modern culture. Now the post-modern philosophy teaches that there are no absolute truths, so the original evangelical, traditional evangelical thought that the Bible was the inerrant Word of God. That Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth and the life,” but now the post-modernist teaching that truth actually isn’t knowable. Now this is an Eastern worldview, you see in Eastern Mysticism truth is all embracing, truth is; your truth is good for you, my truth is good for me and in order for the two of us to unite we must dialogue and converse. Well we know what happened in the Bible with the first conversation; the first conversation was with the serpent with Eve, she was sinless without sin pure made in the image of God. And he came and tempted her with a desire which is extraordinary that she could be kind of more like God, but she was without sin. So what’s been happening within Christendom is that we can supposedly become more like God through Eastern Mysticism, Satan used Eve’s reason, her imagination, the fruit looked like it was good to eat and so all of these concepts of dialogue and conversation have come in where we are talking with each other’s opinions. Well opinions are nothing, its God’s opinion. If God says that evil is evil and good is good then that should be our Evangelical Bible believing standard.
Nathan Jones: So we have given up then the Bible as our source of truth and turned to ourselves as a source of truth?
Caryl Matrisciana: As conversation, dialogues, it is called consensus, you bring in the concept of a crisis situation, you dialogue about it and you meet in the middle. So it is a sort of synthesis, you bring in the idea of let’s all get together and try to solve this solution. Well if you are with a Muslim or a Hindu and a Christian and you are all trying to dialogue about sin there is no meeting place, if you are going to stand on Biblical truth. So in order for us to bring in what the Bible says is going to happen in the last days which is a one world religion we’ve got to be able to merge all our ideas so that Jesus is no longer the deity that the Bible says Jesus is. And we can become the deity, in others words we can define our own truths. And a Muslim can define his Allah as being the same as let’s say what the Bible describes as God which are not the same. The Muslim’s God is the moon God; you see the crescent on top of every mosque because they worship the moon god.
Dr. Reagan: I want to get back to the Emergent Church Movement though.
Caryl Matrisciana: Yeah.
Dr. Reagan: The Emergent Church Movement seems to me to be one of the most dangerous movements in America today because the leaders of it claim to be evangelical. They have using that claim been able to infiltrate evangelical seminaries, evangelical churches. I see them showing up at the most conservative denominations in America making their presentations. And yet these are people, who deny absolute truth, and it’s just, you know the Bible has absolute truth they say that it does not, they deny that. And everything gets into touchy-feely. One of the things that they are doing is getting back to, for example I know of a major evangelical church where the pastor came in and said, “Ok, from now on we are going to have card tables in the lobby. On each card table is going to be a Greek icon and there is going to be instructions about how you can kneel and pray to the icon. Now this is an evangelical church.
Caryl Matrisciana: Absolutely that’s the idea of ecumenical discussion, conversation with those that perhaps don’t believe in your same faith, whether they are those of other religions or that claims to be Christians how can we bring all Christian denominations together.
Dr. Reagan: And a lot of it seems to be getting back to the touchy-feely stuff that was characteristic say of the Roman Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. It’s the idea of you’ve got to have incense, and you’ve got to have you know things of that nature, candles and so forth, that this will all draw you into a deeper relationship with God. It becomes very–
Caryl Matrisciana: Mystical.
Dr. Reagan: –mystical that is the word.
Caryl Matrisciana: Well it is this new spirituality which is through mysticism. You see when you don’t have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, or a relationship with God through the Lord Jesus Christ there is that vacuum in you and you want to have a mystical experience. We are made to have a relationship. So you have a relationship with wrong, the lying spirits, doctrine of demons and how can we know that? You have to know the Bible in order to test the spirits which we are told to do in the Scriptures. But if you don’t have the living sword, the two edged sword, the testing ability then the experience that I feel is my experience and it feels like a good experience and it is a spiritual experience. And I know having come from the New Age that it is very powerful, it is very real and it appears to be truthful.
Dr. Reagan: The leader–
Nathan Jones: Then you just slap a bumper sticker that says, “Coexist,” on your bumper.
Dr. Reagan: There you go. The leader, the recognized leader of the Emergent Church Movement recently appeared at a very conservative college here in Texas. I wrote the President of that college and I said, “Hey, this is a guy.” I gave him two pages of quotes, “Homosexuality what difference does it make?” that is his attitude. “Absolute truth, no there is no such thing,” he went on and on, I gave quote after quote after quote. And I said, “You are going to have this man speak to your people? This is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.” He wrote back and said, “Well I don’t really know anything about him. The Chairman of our Bible Department arranged this; I will have him write you.” The Chairman of the Bible Department wrote to him and said, “Well I am sure you have probably taken all these quotes out of context because I met him and he is such a nice person.”
Caryl Matrisciana: Well there you go, you see.
Nathan Jones: Nice guy.
Dr. Reagan: He is such a nice person.
Caryl Matrisciana: I’ve met him and he is a nice person. That’s a deluding spirit. See we cannot, it’s not who we speak to, it is not an emotional level. The Bible tells us to test the spirit. We’ve got to test on the spiritual level, not emotional. So what’s happening with the new Emergent Church is that it is plugging into emotions, subjectivity it’s a feel good faith. Its truth is judgmental, “don’t be so judgmental.”
Dr. Reagan: Absolutely, absolutely.
Nathan Jones: Tolerance, the ultimate ethic now right?
Caryl Matrisciana: Tolerance that is the ecumenical, that’s the idea of embracing all religions. And you’ve got to have the breakdown of all denominations in Christianity in order to bring in the new one world religion.
Dr. Reagan: People say to me, “Well you really must be exaggerating what these people say.” Well at first they were rather subtle but now in recent years I have noticed they have become very open. For example here is a quote from one of the leaders of the movement, “My goal is to destroy Christianity as a world religion and be a re-catalyst for the movement of Jesus Christ.”
Caryl Matrisciana: A re-catalyst for the movement?
Dr. Reagan: A re-catalyst.
Caryl Matrisciana: For the movement of Jesus Christ?
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Caryl Matrisciana: Which Jesus?
Dr. Reagan: Nobody knows what that means, that is mumbo-jumbo.
Nathan Jones: Dilbert talk.
Caryl Matrisciana: Well the problem is remember that Jesus said in Matthew 24, four times He says there is going to be religious deception in the last days.
Dr. Reagan: Oh, absolutely.
Caryl Matrisciana: There is going to be false teachers in the last days. False teachings beware they are going to come in the name of Christ, they are going to come in my name He said, His name is Christianity. Here is a false Jesus Christ. So the Antichrist, why is he called Antichrist? Like Jesus.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Caryl Matrisciana: So we have got to recondition the minds of everybody to think that this new Christ consciousness, this new Jesus Christ is going to be something that we can all embrace whether you are Muslim, Hindu whatever it is. And the big peace plan of a leading evangelical movement teacher today is about bringing in global Christianity, global peace plan, global ecumenical ideas.
Dr. Reagan: So what you are saying is that this Emergent Church Movement is really just part of many different movements that exist that are designed to prepare the way for the one world religion of the Antichrist.
Caryl Matrisciana: Absolutely and it’s the ecumenical idea of going into every denomination whether it is Episcopalian, Protestant, Reformed Theology whatever it is, it is that we all must come to a census a consensus of a new Jesus Christ, a new Christ consciousness.
Nathan Jones: Welcome back to our interview of Caryl Matrisciana one of Christendom’s most respected experts on Eastern Religions, contemporary cults, and Christian apostasy. We’ve been talking with her with apostasy in the Church today and we want to focus now on what is called the Emergent Church Movement; Caryl can you define that for us: the Emergent Church Movement what does that mean?
Caryl Matrisciana: It is a difficult word, just think about emerging.
Nathan Jones: Emerging yeah, what.
Caryl Matrisciana: I mean how do you define emerging? It hasn’t come yet, we don’t know what it could turn into.
Dr. Reagan: Where it is going?
Caryl Matrisciana: Because it is emerging and it is a very, very clever incredible label for a movement that is actually going to be emerging into the one world religion that is going to usher in the Antichrist. So that is what it is emerging to, it is emerging to new truths, it is emerging into a new Christ, it is emerging into new concepts of that you don’t need to understand truth.
Dr. Reagan: Well basically aren’t they saying that Christianity needs to be reconstructed?
Caryl Matrisciana: Reformed, reinvented, redesigned because it–
Nathan Jones: Just throw the Bible out then?
Caryl Matrisciana: Well it sounds good because in actual fact they want to try to reach out to the post-modern culture and they say that traditional Bible believing Christians don’t do that. Well if you actually look at the back of that concept, the back of that concept is saying that God didn’t know that we were going to be a post-modern generation right now. And God didn’t anticipate that men were going to become such wretched sinners and so God gave up because He didn’t–
Nathan Jones: Really? And they found that out how?
Caryl Matrisciana: Well that’s what, if you think it through logically that is what it is saying.
Nathan Jones: Oh, out of their own heads then.
Caryl Matrisciana: Because it is saying that God didn’t design the Bible to converse, to attract today’s generation. Well no what’s happening is today’s generation is so pulling away from truth God is the same yesterday, today and forever, the Word is what we’ve got to come back to. We’ve got to realize that we are sinners; we’ve got to come back to the center. But another concept that we’ve got to realize is that within Eastern Mysticism and Hinduism it is based on the idea of evolution. See there are two opposing worldviews; one is that God created, which is Creation, and one is that the world evolved, and there is evolving truth, there is evolving religiality it is evolving so that is where the emerging comes in based on the foundation of evolution.
Dr. Reagan: It seems to me like that the Emergent Church Movement simply does not understand the power of the Word of God. They feel like that we have to change the Gospel, present it in a whole different way in order to relate to the modern generation. But the Gospel is super natural in its power. Just as you were converted just like that, this can happen to a person in the post-modern generation, if they are confronted with their sin.
Caryl Matrisciana: If they are confronted with the Word.
Dr. Reagan: And with the Word.
Caryl Matrisciana: See I got given the power of God unto salvation; the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. If I hadn’t been given the Gospel I couldn’t have got saved. The Gospel is that I am a sinner in need of a Savior and that’s what was given to me in those few minutes that opened my eyes. It’s the power of the Word that opens the eyes. Now Satan knows this, Satan came to Eve in Genesis 3 and said, “Surely God hasn’t said.” He immediately attacked the authority of the Word, so it’s no different.
Dr. Reagan: You know I become more and more convinced that the people involved in the Emergent Church Movement are moving in the direction of the old liberal mainstream Christianity of saying really what it’s all about is environmentalism, it’s the protection of nature, it’s protection of Mother Earth and we are going to be bring peace to the whole world. Let me read you a statement by the leader.
Caryl Matrisciana: It’s the social gospel.
Dr. Reagan: The leader of the movement here is a statement, “The Church has been preoccupied with the question what happens to your soul after you die, as if the reason for Jesus coming can be summed up in Jesus is trying to help get more souls into Heaven as opposed to Hell after they die. I just think a fair reading of the Gospel blows that out of the water. I don’t think the entire message and life of Jesus can be boiled down to that bottom line of saving souls.”
Caryl Matrisciana: How sad, how awful because Jesus said, “That He comes that none shall perish.” He came to give us eternal life so that none should perish and that was the whole purpose, Jesus Christ.
Dr. Reagan: This same fellow held a conference in Seattle which your friend Eric Barger who our viewers know well attended and he said, “We’ve interpreted John 3:16 incorrectly it has nothing to do with salvation of souls, it has to do with salvation of the world. Jesus came to die for the world.” And he invited people to come up afterwards and put their hands into dirt and commit themselves to saving the environment.
Caryl Matrisciana: Well you see within Eastern Mysticism the world is Mother Goddess the environment is who should be worshiped. It is the matriarchal system, not the patriarchal. If we have to go even further back to Satan this is demonic, this is satanic, and we have to understand that just as there is a personal God, there is a personal enemy of God and that is Satan. And his attack has been on the Word of God, the authority of God, the purpose of Jesus because he said to Eve in the Garden, “Surely you won’t die. If you follow me you won’t die. If you follow me you’ll get wisdom. If you follow me you can be like God.” All of these are the fundamentals of the Emerging Church Movement.
Nathan Jones: Would you say the movement then isn’t a particular denomination?
Dr. Reagan: Oh, in all of them.
Caryl Matrisciana: No it penetrates into all denominations.
Dr. Reagan: It is everywhere.
Caryl Matrisciana: The people that are the leaders of the emerging movement claim that they came from evangelical backgrounds. Now they may of come from evangelical church backgrounds but they didn’t understand the authority of the Word of God, because they were raised in a post-modern generation; the idea that truth is relative, truth is not knowable, truth we need to debate it we need to get into sort of protagonist situation where we can debate and create. We get a thesis, we get an opposite of a thesis and we combine it with a synthesis.
Nathan Jones: Human wisdom?
Caryl Matrisciana: And it is all about wisdom, human wisdom.
Dr. Reagan: Well that reminds me of the fact that the leader of the Emergent Church Movement was invited recently to come to Dallas to speak to one of the most outstanding Evangelical Seminaries in all the world right here in Dallas, Texas. And the President of the Seminary was confronted by people who said, “What are you doing? Why are you inviting this person in who is a wolf in sheep’s clothing?” “Well, you have to understand,” he said, “we’re an educational institution we have to be open to all ideas and all people can come in and speak.” And they say, “Well then if you are going to invite a false, a person teaching a false Gospel at least have a faculty member get up and be given equal time to confront him.” “No, that wouldn’t be polite.”
Caryl Matrisciana: Right, well you see I came from, how did I get involved in the New Age because I was given a plethora of beliefs and because this world is controlled by Satan, Satan is the god of this world I was under seduction and seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. So if one doesn’t understand the reality of Satan’s warfare in this we don’t understand the war we are involved in. But look recently we’ve had America’s pastor named by Time Magazine, who invited three New Age completely Eastern indoctrinated, mystical doctors into his health plan to introduce his entire congregation of 22,000 people to a new health and wellness plan. Now these three doctors between themselves had an Eastern worldview even though 1 is a Muslim, 1 is a Jew, 1 is a Christian mystic they come from an Eastern worldview background; that within ourselves is a potential that we can heal ourselves. And that is the idea of Eastern Mysticism that within us we can connect to divinity, we can heal ourselves, it is mind over matter.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Caryl Matrisciana: It is hypnosis, self-hypnosis so this is what the emerging church is all about, new ideas that have come from the East. They are not new ideas they are old ideas it is the old lie from the Garden of Eden.
Dr. Reagan: And look at the society they produce in the East.
Caryl Matrisciana: Look at that society–
Nathan Jones: Yeah, good point.
Caryl Matrisciana: –to see that it is not a nurturing, in fact it is a very cruel system.
Dr. Reagan: One of the words that I hear over and over in the Emergent Church leaders is the word contemplative, they’re really heavy on that. Let me read you a quote here from one of their leaders, “The fact is that contemplative spirituality will play a huge part in the church of the future, and I want to assure you that candles are just the beginning.”
Caryl Matrisciana: Why? Because we are changing the names, if they said Eastern Mysticism is going to play a huge part in new church we wouldn’t buy it. But when you say contemplate that sounds better and they intercut contemplate with mediate but in Eastern Mysticism the contemplation and meditation is in the snake within you, the idea that you can become one with everything. So that contemplative idea which by the way is also deeply rooted in the desert fathers which is part of Roman Catholicism the mystical idea of connecting through silence which is opposed to the Bible. We don’t connect to God through silence, but that is part of centering prayer, contemplative spirituality that you go into a silence, you practice the presence. Well all of these are emotional feelings they are based on subjectivity it’s based on relative truth, you’re experience is as good as my experience. What they don’t understand that Satan is called an angel of light and the demon of darkness that dragon who is out to deceive the whole world. His job is deception and he is going to come in as an angel of light, in fact that same Scripture 2 Corinthians 11 says, “No wonder his ministers appear as ministers of righteousness.”
Dr. Reagan: Yes, subjectivity always leads to an openness to deception. It is like people who tell me, “God told me this, or God told me that,” and they will tell me something that is totally off the wall as if they think that every thought that goes our fallen minds comes from God. And even if they had a thought from God it might be completely convoluted by the time it goes through our fallen minds. We need to test everything by the word of God.
Caryl Matrisciana: We have to, the blindness of it if like taking a sailor out into the middle of the ocean and he will just go wherever the boat and the currents take him to. You know a sailor he has to have a compass; he has to have a direction. Even at night if he doesn’t have a compass or a direction he’s got the stars those are based on objective truth and reality.
Dr. Reagan: Right.
Caryl Matrisciana: We have to have our guide book, the manual that God has given us to test His character against the character of Satan. His well-being, His mercy, His grace a personal relationship with Him as opposed to our subjective feelings.
Dr. Reagan: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy and our discussion with Caryl Matrisciana about the Emergent Church Movement. Caryl what are some of the red flags, warning signs that people should watch for that might indicate that their Church is suddenly moving in the direction of the Emergent Church Movement?
Caryl Matrisciana: I would say it is the way that the Church teaches the Word of God. There are two different types of teaching; there’s thematic way of teaching which is based on topics and if you do that topical teaching which a lot of Emergent Churches are doing then they are able to pull in order to bring their topic, to persuade their topic to go along their line of thought they can maybe pull one or two Bible verses.
Dr. Reagan: Oh, they can always find a verse.
Caryl Matrisciana: And they can pull from Gandhi’s writings and Williams Shakespeare’s writing, and Churchill’s writings to support the view. They can also take it as in the, Purpose Driven Life which has taken 15 different Bible versions not all of those are even translations.
Dr. Reagan: Well you fish around until you find one that says what you want it to say.
Caryl Matrisciana: Or half a verse that says what you want it to say. So I think that is the danger of thematic teaching, whereas the other type of teaching which is based on expository teaching; on line by line, verse-by-verse actually based on what does God say about this, what is God’s opinion based on the Word of God in the full council of God. And you will find that a lot of churches if they are not teaching the Word of God in the fullness of the context I am sorry to say that they would be open to bringing in authors, books, ideas, Eastern Mystical ideas, changing the words so that it could go from mediation to contemplation, or from yoga to Christian yoga and all of this kind of thing.
Dr. Reagan: The sad fact of the matter is that the Church has ignored the Word for so long, for years now that the average Christian going to Church faithfully every Sunday knows very little of the Word. And you cannot guard yourself against deception if you do not know the Word. I remember the impact of that book, The Shack and about unchristian as it could be in what it’s teaching and yet people thought that it was wonderful and preachers were advocating people go out and read it.
Caryl Matrisciana: Look at Harry Potter, when I made my documentary on Harry Potter I had more Christians come to me saying, “What are you doing with our hero?”
Dr. Reagan: With our hero?
Caryl Matrisciana: Harry isn’t a hero he is a witch, it is a 13 year old witch. The author of Harry Potter said it would take 7 years to make a wizard and Harry is 11 in one book, 12 in the next, 13, etcetera, 7 years later the perfect wizard is made. And the 100’s and 1,000’s of children reading those books are then indoctrinated with another worldview.
Dr. Reagan: Well speaking of your video on that I know that you have produced a great number of videos on fascinating topics like Harry Potter, and Yoga, and the Emergent Church Movement. How about telling our viewers how to get in touch with you and your website?
Caryl Matrisciana: Well thank you. They just need to go onto www.caryl, I spell my name in a different way C-A-R-Y-L-T-V.com, 7 letters C-A-R-Y-L-T-V. 7 letters–
Dr. Reagan: .com
Caryl Matrisciana: .com Thank you.
Dr. Reagan: Nathan how about telling people about our website.
Nathan Jones: We have eight letters in our name, lamblion.com, and we have all sorts of articles on topics like the Emergent Church, we have these TV shows, you can watch them again and again. We have a newsletter that comes out every other week it’s free, subscribe to it, we will send you the Lamplighter Magazine as well. We have a blog if you need a daily dose of Bible Prophecy, a Facebook group you can join and discuss with 4,000 other people Bible prophecy. Come to lamblion.com, eight letters.
Caryl Matrisciana: Wow.
Dr. Reagan: In fact you have, we’ll have posted there the television programs that she made before this one. So the first one was about the Escape from Hinduism, and the second one was about Yoga, so they can go to the website and view those programs on the website, correct.
Nathan Jones: Click multimedia and then television all our programs are listed right there.
Dr. Reagan: Caryl do you have any final words you would like to say to someone out there who is struggling right now with trying to figure out, trying to find a church, what should they look for in trying to find a church?
Caryl Matrisciana: I get so many letters from people saying that our church is going emergent. We have read this, we have read that. Well you know don’t be discouraged because we are told in the last days this is what is going to happen. There is going to be a falling away from truth. Great that you have discerned it. There is also another thing that says in the last days they will come within us, so we know that the teachers and the false prophets are coming from the church. That’s good that they are recognizing that. I would suggest meeting, starting up being with a group of people that teach line-by-line, verse-by-verse teaching of the Bible. Get back to the Word of God.
Dr. Reagan: Well this is a non-denominational ministry and I go to all kinds of Churches and one of the things I found out early on is you can never judge a church by the signboard outside. I have been to Methodist churches that were on fire for God, and I have been to Methodist Churches that were as dead as a doornail. Same true of Baptist Churches and whatever. The key is what is happening in that pulpit is that preacher preaching from the Word of God and is he lifting up Jesus as the only hope for the world? If that is not happening, if he is up there teaching pop psychology or whatever get out of there, look for somebody who is preaching the Word and focusing on Jesus Christ.
Caryl Matrisciana: And encouraging us to be strong in the Word so that we can go out and give the message, and make disciples of all nations.
Dr. Reagan: Well Caryl you have been a great blessing to us thanks again for being with us. Folks that is our program for this week, I hope it’s been a blessing to you it sure has been to me. As we say in Texas I got my socks blessed off. I hope you will be back with us next week, until then this is Dave Reagan speaking for Lamb and Lion Ministries’ saying, “Look up, be watchful, for our redemption is drawing near.”
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