Biblical Antiquity Center, Part 1

Part 1

Dr. Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus our blessed hope and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. And welcome to the great state of Georgia. I’m here in the picturesque town of LaGrange, Georgia; located about 60 miles southwest of Atlanta near the Alabama border. And I’m here to introduce you to a remarkable place called Explorations in Antiquity. It is a place designed to show you how people lived during the First Century at the time of Jesus. This place was established by Jim Fleming who is considered to be the foremost teacher of Biblical Archaeology in all the world. It’s a fascinating place and I’d like to invite you to go inside with me to meet Jim and to take a tour of the facility.

Part 2

Dr. Reagan: Well folks here we are with Jim Fleming in the threshing floor of your garden.

Dr. Fleming: Yes, sir.

Dr. Reagan: And Jim welcome back to Christ in Prophecy.

Dr. Fleming: It’s great to be with you again here.

Dr. Reagan: Now some of our viewers will recognize you immediately because they’ll realize that you’ve been with us before in Dallas. But that time we’re were talking about Archaeology. This time we’re going to be talking about culture of the First Century. And it’s good to be on your turf.

Dr. Fleming: Right and I’m glad you came back 2,000 years earlier also.

Dr. Reagan: Well you know Jim this is I think the third time that I have visited one of your sites. The first time was on Bethlehem Road, was that right in Jerusalem.

Dr. Fleming: Yes.

Dr. Reagan: And then you had a lot of trouble there from Palestinians who were coming in and causing damage. So you moved to Ein Kerem which is a suburb of Jerusalem, and now here to LaGrange, Georgia. Now tell us a little bit about that process.

Dr. Fleming: Well our ministry in Jerusalem was important to have Christian tourism. So we charged Christian tour groups. But whenever we had a Jewish or Muslim group within the country, a school, Synagogue, even a Mosque went to visit the museum we always had it free because it was an educational moment for Christian witness to have non-Christians want to come. And once tourism began to collapse, you remember the second uprising from 2000-2005 almost completely disappeared. We were unable to pay our landlord. So we had to close our gates in 2005 at the Ein Kerem property. So we came to the US wondering, “I wonder if we could build a museum here.” And we asked around and we found a foundation in this town, LaGrange, Georgia, Calloway Foundation that said if we would put the museum here they would give us matching grants, dollar for dollar any money we raised.

Dr. Reagan: Wonderful, wonderful.

Dr. Fleming: Now is that an offer you can’t refuse?

Dr. Reagan: That was wonderful.

Dr. Fleming: We felt it was a gift from the Lord.

Dr. Reagan: Well I’ll tell you what I’ve visited all three of your sites and this is the most elaborate, most fantastic it’s really worthwhile to bring a Christian group here to see what you have.

Dr. Fleming: Well I am glad you can make that evaluation David, thanks.

Dr. Reagan: Tell us a little bit about yourself, your background.

Dr. Fleming: Well it’s kind of weird I come from an airline family so I spent most my life overseas in Asia, and Africa. My dad helped countries start their own airlines. And I could fly free and so when it was time to do graduate studies I thought, “I should use these free flying privileges to study overseas.” And I was interested in Biblical Studies so I thought, “Why don’t I study in Israel?” So I worked on the Masters level in Jerusalem, Israel. And later was privileged to be invited back to teach at the school where I had studied in Jerusalem.

Dr. Reagan: And then what happened?

Dr. Fleming: Well then I got more interested in tours pretty much see churches.

Dr. Reagan: Yes.

Dr. Fleming: Or ruins but most people have a hard time picturing how the site really looked before it was a ruin. Then if we could have a place where we have reconstructions as things looked; a functioning threshing floor with threshing equipment for example. It would really help the Bible come alive for daily life. So we made all of our museums tried to be in a real setting. Here we had to recreate terrace agriculture and stuff.

Dr. Reagan: Yes, yes.

Dr. Fleming: But the idea is to help people climb out of their 20th Century skin, don sandals and go back to biblical times.

Dr. Reagan: Now when you went to Israel you gave the impression that you went over there to study and that was it. But you actually that became your home, you lived there over 30 years didn’t you.

Dr. Fleming: Yes, yes.

Dr. Reagan: Almost 40 years.

Dr. Fleming: That’s right 36 years it was my home. In fact I thought I would probably retire there until we had to close down the museum.

Dr. Reagan: And then an accident happened to you that made you world famous among archaeologists.

Dr. Fleming: You always bring up something that took no foresight, no brilliance it is called stumbling into an archaeological discovery. I fell in a hole.

Dr. Reagan: Well tell us about that.

Dr. Fleming: Well I was photographing around the old city of Jerusalem and I was taking a picture of the Eastern Gate to the city.

Dr. Reagan: It had been raining for several days’ right?

Dr. Fleming: Yup, and of course the ground was soft. And there was a mass burial tomb under where I was standing. And just when I went click taking a picture of the top of the gate I fell down eight feet into the ground.

Dr. Reagan: A mass tomb.

Dr. Fleming: Forty-six skeletons. Actually I didn’t count them right away I wanted to make sure enough rocks fell in that I could climb up and it wouldn’t be 47 skeletons.

Dr. Reagan: Brother if I’d feel down in that tomb I would have walked on air to get out. Here you are counting skeletons.

Dr. Fleming: Yes, well they were interesting.

Dr. Reagan: More important than that you actually took a camera and started taking pictures.

Dr. Fleming: Yes.

Dr. Reagan: And what did you see in one of those pictures?

Dr. Fleming: An arch of an earlier gate.

Dr. Reagan: So you proved that the ancient Eastern Gate was located below the current Eastern Gate.

Dr. Fleming: Yes.

Dr. Reagan: Which was a major archaeological debate up to that point?

Dr. Fleming: And that it was fully discovered. The top of the arch is in place which means another 20 feet down or so would be the roadway. And I told my archaeologists professor the next day and he thought I feel on my head, “Sure you found the gate.” But he was willing to come back. They had already cemented it over, in uncharacteristic Middle East efficiency.

Dr. Reagan: What year was that?

Dr. Fleming: That was in ’69.

Dr. Reagan: ’69 and you were a young man then.

Dr. Fleming: Just a kid.

Dr. Reagan: Just a kid and here you become world famous over night among archaeologist that was amazing.

Dr. Fleming: No, no.

Dr. Reagan: I think the Lord had a purpose for your life.

Dr. Fleming: Well I do feel that, as we all should.

Dr. Reagan: That’s right. That’s right. Well now let’s talk about purpose for a moment. You’ve touched on it, but I want you to get very specific. What is the purpose of Explorations in Antiquity?

Dr. Fleming: To help people see daily life as the ancients would have seen it. And that they would learn to think in the way the ancient people thought that will help the Bible come alive.

Dr. Reagan: OK.

Dr. Fleming: For example we read a modern way of thinking in the Bible. How can we suspend some of that? And look at the very practical daily life and imagery from biblical times.

Dr. Reagan: So you have many sites out here in what you call your Biblical Garden that we’re going to be taking a look at. But you also have an education center here were you have an auditorium and you have maps and all kinds of multi-media presentations and programs you can present, correct?

Dr. Fleming: Yes, we try to run conferences. We have some things particularly geared to clergy. Most of what we do though is for layperson who is interested in the life of the church.

Dr. Reagan: And also inside your main building you have some places where you can have a biblical meal.

Dr. Fleming: Yes.

Dr. Reagan: And see what the Last Supper really looked like.

Dr. Fleming: Right, and there are so many discoveries that give a completely different idea than church art.

Dr. Reagan: OK, one final question before we take a tour of your facility. Could you give me an example off the top of your head of how better understanding the culture of the First Century would better help you to understand something that’s said in the Bible?

Dr. Fleming: Only a thousand come to mind. But did you know houses in the time of Jesus were 20 to 40 rooms, 50 to 75 people; 3 to 4 generations.

Dr. Reagan: Living in one house?

Dr. Fleming: All relatives by marriage living in one house. And it helps you reinterpret parables. Why does the woman when she has lost 1 out of 10 coins tell her friends and neighbors? They’re looking too. They all lived and shared cooking rooms, courtyards, storage rooms you see; the idea of that collective identity. Now part of its rough because everybody knows everything about everybody and talks about it all the time. But part of it is you have that support system.

Dr. Reagan: Well I was going to say that is your social security system.

Dr. Fleming: Yes, yes. There is no need for care institutions for the elderly. And that just gives you a new nuance; things aren’t private matters like we think in the United States where it is such an individualistic country. But when the prodigal son wishes his mom and dad were dead and asked for his inheritance in advance everybody knows it. It’s not just the one family; all the relatives, even relatives who are not there. He’s embarrassed that neighborhood, that town. It is just–

Dr. Reagan: So in a town like Nazareth which was tiny maybe 200 people everybody knew everybody and everything about everybody.

Dr. Fleming: And they did things together. One thing that is really interesting about the story when Mary and Joseph left Jesus behind in Jerusalem that home alone story, the next day or that night probably as they were counting noses they realized Jesus wasn’t with them. Listen, they inquired amongst their relatives and friends, “Had anyone seen Jesus?” Which means Mary and Joseph and Jesus had a support system of family and friends that came with them for the coming of age visit of Mary and Joseph’s son to Jerusalem. Which means Mary and Jesus would not have been alone either with the loss of Joseph which is apparently so.

Dr. Reagan: And I would suppose it means too that when Mary became pregnant everybody in town knew it.

Dr. Fleming: That’s the down side. Yes.

Dr. Reagan: It probably would be good for Joseph to take Mary with him to Bethlehem he had to go because of the Census.

Dr. Fleming: Yes, yes.

Dr. Reagan: That way no one knows exactly when the baby was born or the circumstances.

Dr. Fleming: OK. Well let’s take a tour of this wonderful place.

Dr. Reagan: OK.

Dr. Fleming: Alright.

Part 2

Dr. Reagan: Well folks we’re in what looks to me like a Bedouin tent but let’s let the expert tell us what it is.

Dr. Fleming: This is goat hair, brownish-black color. When it’s dry there’s a very large space in the weave and light can shine through. But as soon as it gets wet is swells and it becomes waterproof.

Dr. Reagan: Isn’t that something?

Dr. Fleming: So it’s perfect. But look over here, when you look up towards the sun in the day is looks like the Milky Way.

Dr. Reagan: It does.

Dr. Fleming: The word in the Old Testament for the night sky is the tent of the heavens.

Dr. Reagan: Oh, wow.

Dr. Fleming: God has just unfurled the tent in heaven.

Dr. Reagan: Now they still use tents like this in Israel today the Bedouins do.

Dr. Fleming: Sure.

Dr. Reagan: You can see them on the way from Jerusalem to Jericho.

Dr. Fleming: I’m afraid there’s a lot more plastic now days, but there still some.

Dr. Reagan: Yeah, what is this?

Dr. Fleming: Well there’s always in antiquity and even today amongst the Bedouin a divide for a woman and children section.

Dr. Reagan: Women over here; so Sarah would have been standing on this side listening to Abraham talk.

Dr. Fleming: Right and this is where Abraham would have received others.

Dr. Reagan: OK. Well there is a little interesting item hanging on the tent over here I want us to talk about.

Dr. Fleming: Oh, ok.

Dr. Reagan: Let’s go see that.

Dr. Fleming: OK, this is what I have in mind here Jim this is fascinating. Now what in the world is this thing?

Dr. Reagan: Believe it or not a dog collar. The predators, today it is the grey wolf in the north. But in antiquity you had lions, bears, wolfs. The dogs actually wear this for a dog collar because where is the place the wolf is going to go for? The neck of the dog.

Dr. Fleming: Now they didn’t put those on sheep did they?

Dr. Reagan: No, on the guard dogs.

Dr. Fleming: On the just the guard dogs.

Dr. Reagan: Oh.

Dr. Fleming: So the shepherd needs to have the guard dog of course for their hearing. But they’re huge watch dogs. And they even cut their ears today so that the wolf won’t have the chance to bite onto something. The main point is this; most people don’t realize how dangerous it is to be a shepherd in biblical times.

Dr. Reagan: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Fleming: And when Jesus said the shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Dr. Reagan: He meant it.

Dr. Fleming: I’d imagine people living near grazing areas would hear every week of a shepherd being attacked.

Dr. Reagan: Well David talked about killing–

Dr. Fleming: –a lion and a bear.

Dr. Reagan: Yes ok. OK, let’s see what this temporary sheepfold is all about here.

Dr. Fleming: Right, when you’re grazing overnight you have to have a place to protect the sheep at night. You get sharp sticks or thorns and you have to make an enclosure where you have a removable gate because of course predators feed at night.

Dr. Fleming: Yeah.

Dr. Reagan: So the most dangerous time for the protection of the sheep is night. You’re trying to find a place where there’s a few little caves if you can. Particularly because the desert you know is cold at night, hot in the day. But you try to have in your area of your encampment also even if you go part of the year and come back a permanent sheepfold particularly for the winter. Shall we go look at that one.

Dr. Fleming: Yes, this over here this is sufficient to keep the sheep in. What happens it’s not to keep the sheep in. It’s to keep the predators out. You have these sharp stick. And even though some could jump over it, they won’t because they know they can’t pull the animal out.

Dr. Reagan: Yeah, this is almost like putting the glass on top of the walls as you see in Jerusalem.

Dr. Fleming: Exactly. And the soft underside of the predator you see keeps them out.

Dr. Reagan: Alright, let’s see a permanent one, ok.

Dr. Fleming: Ok.

Dr. Reagan: Let’s step inside and see what this looks like here. Now first of all why do have this divided here?

Dr. Fleming: It is because of the difference between sheep and goats.

Dr. Reagan: Oh.

Dr. Fleming: Goats are much more sure footed and need a higher wall. You see this wall is higher than this one. For sheep this is fine. So when you come in you have a little slide gate here, you separate the sheep from the goats because they’ll need a higher more secure sheepfold.

Dr. Reagan: And back here it looks like a cave.

Dr. Fleming: Yes, you have two mangers for feeding and watering here. But listen to this Bethlehem is 20 degrees in the winter and 120 in the summer. If you have a cave at least 10 feet deep it will be 69 year round.

Dr. Reagan: I know because I’ve been in them.

Dr. Fleming: The insulation factor. So there are also mangers and sheepfolds inside. And the earliest traditions Second Century AD they Gospel of James didn’t make it in the cannon but it mentions that Jesus was born in a cave.

Dr. Reagan: Oh.

Dr. Fleming: If you ask people in Jesus day where are you most likely to find a manger? 90% of the mangers are inside caves.

Dr. Reagan: OK.

Dr. Fleming: Because that insulation factor.

Dr. Reagan: Well I often wondered about that because I’d always heard about the cave but I didn’t know where that came from.

Dr. Fleming: Yeah, that is where you would keep the animals.

Dr. Reagan: Especially in the fall and winter time you are going to keep them in there.

Dr. Fleming: Also for the health of a mother and the new born babe you see. There is no place in the guest room there would be a constant temperature in a cave. So it is good for the mother and baby also.

Dr. Fleming: This is a rock quarry. And you can see here there is a mountainside that we are cutting away. And you can see there are pieces of wood in spaces between the cuts so you could pour water on it.

Dr. Reagan: So you pour water on the wood and then it expands?

Dr. Fleming: The osmosis makes it expand and it will release the blocks.

Dr. Reagan: Wow.

Dr. Fleming: Over here we have an example of a kind of stone work called dovetail where you see it is like puzzle pieces.

Dr. Reagan: Looks like a jig-saw puzzle.

Dr. Fleming: Yeah. And there is actually a picture of a wall back here made with it. But if you’re on a lose foundation or a swamp it’s locked together. Paul talks about the Church being stones rightly joined together, adding strength to one another.

Dr. Reagan: Right.

Dr. Fleming: And people often ask, “How do they lift up stones?” Well you see there is a walk and wheel here.

Dr. Reagan: Well let’s take a look at that.

Dr. Fleming: OK.

Dr. Reagan: OK, Jim, how in the world did they ever move these stones?

Dr. Fleming: The answer is very slowly. No, no, sorry. It’s amazing 500 BC the Greeks learned if you make a rope go around a pulley it reduces by 1/4 the weight of the other side of the pulley. And so you have a round thing there, you have one pulley up there and it comes down to the second, a third pulley and back. So believe it or not this could be 1,000 pounds in this.

Dr. Reagan: I don’t weigh that much.

Dr. Fleming: No, no. You see they would have people walk in these wheels.

Dr. Reagan: And you could do it that easily?

Dr. Fleming: And they would wind it up, wind it up. There is a picture over here of five people in a wheel lifting up a huge stone. So think about Herod’s Temple 200 feet high. But they had a series of tripods, quadripods, pulleys, they weren’t dumb.

Dr. Reagan: They certainly weren’t, they knew a little bit about engineering didn’t they?

Dr. Fleming: Remember when they left the Temple and some disciples said to Jesus, “Have you ever seen such beautiful stones or magnificent buildings?” But Jesus had reminded them yet all of that is going to come to an end.

Dr. Reagan: Not one stone on top of the other.

Dr. Fleming: But they were impressed with the engineering of these imperial building projects.

Dr. Reagan: I am too.

Dr. Fleming: Ok, ok.

Dr. Reagan: OK, Jim we’ve climbed up on top of what looks a watch tower here, what is this?

Dr. Fleming: Exactly, this is a vineyard watchtower.

Dr. Reagan: Why do you need a watchtower in a vineyard?

Dr. Fleming: In vintage season when the grapes are out someone is going to steal them.

Dr. Reagan: Oh.

Dr. Fleming: But it is not only that animals can trod on them.

Dr. Reagan: Yes.

Dr. Fleming: So the vine dresser and family sleep in the watchtower. Now the season is end of summer so you don’t need a permanent roof you only need shade. And you stay overnight here. And so we’ve made a vineyard here but there is no wire right?

Dr. Reagan: That’s right.

Dr. Fleming: In antiquity so it is a very different way to grow the grapes.

Dr. Reagan: OK, let’s go take a look at that.

Dr. Reagan: Ok well you said there were no wires. Of course they didn’t have wires then so they just let the grapes grow on the ground?

Dr. Fleming: Yup, but every vine has a couple rocks next to it.

Dr. Reagan: That’s right.

Dr. Fleming: That we do have.

Dr. Reagan: So what’s the purpose of that? To keep them off the ground?

Dr. Fleming: Now here’s the thing you have to keep lifting the branches up on the rock as they get further away because if it touches the ground it will make a root at that point. And then what will happen it will wither its connection with the deeper root of the mother vine. And then we get 5 months of no rain; May, June, July, August, September. In Judea grapes come our August/September and it will wither. Now let’s go back to Jesus saying at the Last Supper, “I am the vine, you are the branches abide in me.” Everybody knows if you don’t keep the vine off the ground it will make its own nourishment and stop.

Dr. Reagan: Except 20th Century people don’t know that.

Dr. Fleming: Oh well, we have to work on that. But isn’t it interesting Jesus last saying for His disciple was keep your nourishment in life based upon my deeper root.

Dr. Reagan: Deeper root, yes.

Dr. Fleming: That will hold you through the droughts. And did you know the same word take away in Greek is lift up? In fact three out of four times it is translated lift up. Instead of understanding any branch that bears not fruit I will take away, three out of four times that word is I will lift up. And if you’re all the time stacking branches up onto rocks it is a very different feeling isn’t it?

Dr. Reagan: Yes.

Dr. Fleming: Between take away and lift up. I’ll help you keep your nourishment based on my deeper root.

Dr. Reagan: Once again understanding the culture, farming methods and whatever helps us to better understand the Bible.

Dr. Fleming: I think if more translators would see an ancient vineyard without branches already up on wire they may have thought of putting lift-up, instead of take-away.

Dr. Reagan: What is our next stop in this tour?

Dr. Fleming: Let’s go down to the natural consequence and look at the grape press.

Dr. Reagan: See what they did with the grape, ok, let’s go.

Dr. Fleming: Here we are at the place you bring your grapes from the vineyard.

Dr. Reagan: Oh, so the person holds onto the ropes.

Dr. Fleming: That’s so you stomp with two points instead of three points.

Dr. Reagan: OK. And you hold onto the ropes and you have bare feet hopefully clean.

Dr. Fleming: Hopefully.

Dr. Reagan: And you’ve got grapes in there.

Dr. Fleming: You stomp there and you take off your sandals otherwise it would be a little bit sour with the pits being scrapped and stuff. And you see the grape juice dribbles down here. And actually this should not be inside we didn’t want it to fall over but that is your collection vat. What is very interesting in the images in the Bible the stomping vat is the image of judgment; grapes of wrath. You hear a cadence on two occasions when you are stomping on the grapes and an enemy army marching in. So remember Jesus phrase trodden under the foot of the Gentiles.

Dr. Reagan: The grapes yes.

Dr. Fleming: And bowls of judgment crushed grapes and stuff. But the collection vat is a symbol of joy because the grapes come out the end of summer just when your water cisterns are drying up the Lord gives you the fruit of the vine. So for Jews that overflowing cup of wine, my cup overflows is joy.

Dr. Reagan: And then you take that juice and you put it here and it strains it?

Dr. Fleming: You have to use a linen cloth. Remember Jesus saying, “Some religious people strain a gnat and swallow a camel.

Dr. Reagan: Yes.

Dr. Fleming: Flies, gnats, ants, end of summer. So you strain it. There are some Pharisees at the time of Jesus who don’t trust you. If you’ve come over for dinner before you pour the fruit of the vine into their cup they’ll bring out a linen cloth and put it over the cup. A gnat is unclean, and a camel is unclean.

Dr. Reagan: I’ve swallowed a lot of gnats in my life.

Dr. Fleming: And we’ve all meet a lot of people who are worried about a gnat but they swallow camels everyday too. Peace and justice issues.

Dr. Reagan: Now do you have a place here that shows how they process olives?

Dr. Fleming: Yes.

Dr. Reagan: This is grapes, olives?

Dr. Fleming: Yes stomping for grapes. Olives are pressed let’s go look.

Dr. Reagan: Let’s see a press.

Dr. Fleming: So here’s where you press the olives. Understand that you would have baskets or sometimes sacks held up by these stones back here.

Dr. Reagan: You’ve got a large stone here.

Dr. Fleming: That is so you can really have a flat surface.

Dr. Reagan: So the olives are put under here, a stone on top and then you put this thing on and weights.

Dr. Fleming: And notice there are places to put more than one weight. We just have the second weight on now. Usually a weight is as big as you can for two people to lift it up. And you can imagine as you put the weight on the olive juice runs down the sides and then into this collection vat for the olive oil. Now what is interesting is this is called believe it or not a gethsemane.

Dr. Reagan: A gethsemane?

Dr. Fleming: Geth is press, semane is oil.

Dr. Reagan: Pressed oil.

Dr. Fleming: So Jesus likes to pray at a garden called the garden of the oil press. If you ask anyone what do you picture when you picture an oil press? They’ll say liquid running down the sides and something getting flatter and flatter under pressure. So I think the imagine is there; Jesus feels pressed in the garden of the oil press. But notice you would add four different ways and that’s for four grades of olive oil. You put the first weight on that’s called the first pressing, virgin oil, and it is for religious purposes. It is for anointing the sick. It is for the menorah in your synagogue with the special 7 day ceremony, the lamp stand in the Temple. You cup that all up, and then you put the second weight on, that is the largest press it is for cooking and eating. Then you add taking that away you add the third weight that is a little bit bitter so it is for your oil lamps. And you see you have a place for the wick here, and the pour the oil in there. And the fourth pressing is so full of lye; l-y-e is used for soap.

Dr. Reagan: That is amazing.

Dr. Fleming: We joke Palmolive soap, palm and olive oil are used. Isn’t that amazing? The book of Hosea says, “Like as an olive tree to a beautiful tree.” In terms of function pickled fruit, the wood of course the door of the Temple is made of olive wood. And then you’ve got healing with anointing. You’ve got cooking, salad oil and eating. And then you have electricity, your light, and even your soap. It truly makes it a beautiful tree.

Dr. Reagan: It’s amazing. Thank you.

Closing

Dr. Reagan: I hope you are enjoying this tour of Jim Fleming’s fabulous Antiquity Center in LaGrange, Georgia. As you have seen, it is a place where you can learn firsthand how people lived in the time of Jesus. If you would like to find out more about this fascinating place you can locate their website at digging4it.net. It would be a great place for you to take a church group. They have special study programs for both adults, and children. Next week the Lord willing we are going to continue our tour of the Antiquity Center and take a look at other aspects of life in Bible times. I hope you’ll be back with us for that program.

Until then this is Dave Reagan speaking for Lamb & Lion Ministries saying, “Look up, be watchful, for our redemption is drawing near.”

End of Program