Why is the Church responsible for the moral slide our society is careening down? Find out with guest Robert Jeffress on television’s “Christ in Prophecy”!
Air Date: August 22, 2021
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Tim Moore: Shalom. Lamb & Lion Ministries has warned for years that America is willfully abandoning its Christian heritage and denying the Biblical worldview of our forebears. A generation ago Robert Bork wrote Slouching Toward Gomorrah that documented our slide toward a moral precipice. Twenty-five years later, some would argue that we’ve already plunged over the edge.
For the past several weeks we’ve featured many of the individuals highlighted in Dr. David Reagan’s book, God’s Prophetic Voices to America. They have consistently sounded the alarm that America is indeed accelerating toward a calamitous future, one where God’s righteous anger will lead to an outpouring of judgment.
Why? Because we have collectively turned our back on the God who has blessed us so richly.
Today we’ll hear from Robert Jeffress, a powerful voice that burst on the American scene in recent years offering an urgent and timely warning, but doing so with a warmth that conveys the love of Christ.
Interview of Dr. Robert Jeffress at First Baptist Church of Dallas
Tim Moore: Pastor, thank you very much for welcoming us to this historic and beautiful campus you have here.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Well, welcome Tim. We finally made it after COVID. We have been working on this for quite a while.
Tim Moore: We certainly have.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: And I want to say also congratulations on taking the baton of leadership of Lamb & Lion Ministries, you’ve got a great legacy as you know with Dr. Reagan. And we are just looking forward to all God is going to do through you.
Tim Moore: Well, thank you very much, sir. I appreciate that. Obviously, it will be God that does very much through this imperfect vehicle, but I am honored to be able to serve in that capacity. Pastor, we’ll jump right into it. I will observe that you have a very special gift, you have been called to be a prophetic voice to America warning of impending judgment. And yet, you are able to deliver that shocking and sometimes jarring message in a way that is warm, and engaging, and without making light of the message that you deliver you do so in a way that you can actually smile. How is it that you balance the heavy message of Jesus’ soon return and of all the things happening around us today, and yet have the joy of Christ that clearly overflows from your heart?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I don’t do that always. But I try to because I think as Christians there is no reason for us to be mad. There is no reason for us to be frothing at the mouth when we talk. I remember maybe ten years ago; Bill Maher on HBO had invited me to come on his show. And it was quite an experience, and I didn’t know what I was going to be facing. But at the end of the interview Bill said to the audience and said, “You know I tried to get him down, but he is just a happy warrior.” And I considered that a compliment. I want to be a happy warrior.
I think we don’t win anybody to Christ by looking like we are the cover photo for the book of Lamentations. I think God wants us to be happy. And yes, there is a message, God is going to judge those who don’t know Christ as Savior. And we’ve got to say that without stuttering. But it is also proof that there is a way of escape for everyone, and we are trying to encourage people to take that way of escape through Christ.
Tim Moore: Well, Pastor you are exactly right. And Jesus is our Blessed Hope. As a matter of fact, we encourage people to flee from the wrath to come, and into the loving arms of our Savior. But we observe that the slide towards secularism and debauchery that has been percolating at the edges of our society seems to have gone mainstream. And it is no longer contained to just the bastions of leftist ideology, instead the sexual revolution has flung us on a headlong rush toward depravity. So, even institutions that once defended a traditional morality have largely jumped onto the woke bandwagon, you might say. So, what kind of backlash have you experienced as you speak out from a biblical worldview?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: I’ll tell you, to be honest, Tim, I face more backlash when I point out Christian institutions that are sliding then the secular ones. And a great example is what has happened 90 miles away from here, south of Dallas at my alma mater, Baylor University. Now, I went to Baylor and they just recently, the regents voted to give the president the authority to recognize an LGBTQ support group, which is code word for fraternity. And that is an abomination, and I’ve spoken out against it. I’ve talked about the fact that the rot at Baylor University that I’ve witnessed firsthand, began in the religion department and its been there for 60 years. And it is whenever you start, Tim, to question whether or not the Bible is truly the inspired, inerrant Word of God then anything is open for renegotiation.
And as a student I heard from professor, after professor, today we still send students down there who have their faith torn apart. They hear things that the Bible is just a collection of stories about God. It has contradictions in it. It has errors. It is the same lie that permeated the first couple, in the first Garden when the serpent said to Eve, “Has God really said?” And again, I think you see this slide away from God’s Word that leads to the moral debauchery you’re talking about.
Tim Moore: Well, what’s amazing to me, you are exactly right, Satan is permeating the same lie. But in spite of this great moral divide in our nation, sometimes even within Christian institutions are perhaps because of it, God has seen fit to provide you with opportunities to reach an even broader audience then might have been expected. As a matter of fact, from your platform here at First Baptist Dallas you reach a number of folks. But who would have dreamed that through outlets like Fox News, and others you are able to reach a nationwide audience, and just tell us how those doors began to open for you.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Well, God has been very gracious to open those doors of opportunity. As you mentioned we have a large broadcast ministry, Pathway to Victory that is one of the fastest growing Christian media ministries in the country. But I’m excited about the secular opportunities. As you know not everybody watches Christian television, and especially non-Christians. But about 12 or 13 years ago I began doing things on CNN and MSNBC, a few things on FOX. And then I started doing more things on FOX, and really Bill O’Reilly gave me my start on Prime Time with him on a regular basis. And he then, and his producer recommended me to become a contributor at FOX which I did about eight years ago. It was really funny, the management realized that when they talked about Christians to them that meant Catholic Priests. And FOX was smart enough to realize that there is an evangelical market out there as well. So, I’ve been honored to be associated with them.
Tim Moore: Well, we’ve been blessed for you to be associated with them and so many others, and to reach that broader audience. So, I personally am grateful for your outreach and your media, and all the things that you do. But, as our nation considers truth. I talked a minute ago about you proclaiming biblical truth. And one of the challenges is that an increasing number of Americans no longer believe in the very idea of truth, and certainly don’t have a grasp of what it is. So, how do you, and how can our viewers advocate for the One who said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life,” in the face of such apathy and even antipathy toward the Christian message?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: I think first of all it means making sure that we are sure what we are saying is the truth and not personal opinion. And you know, Tim there are lot of different ideas about a number of topics we could talk about, whether it was immigration, or healthcare, or a million things, critical race theory and so forth, I have strong feelings about that. But I also realize there is a difference between those opinions and opinions about the things that the Bible is absolutely sure about. And one thing that the Bible doesn’t hesitate to say is that there are not many ways to God, there is one way to God. And the verse you quoted from Jesus, “I am the way, the truth, the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me.” And really the most politically incorrect truth you can share with anyone is there is only way to Heaven, and it is through faith in Jesus Christ. I wrote a book about that a few years ago, “Not All Roads Lead to Heaven.” And that is a truth that when we speak it we can have the confidence that we are truly speaking absolute God’s truth.
Tim Moore: But that is also the very good news, because God has provided that avenue, and so it is not a message of dome and gloom, it is a message of glorious hope because of the good news that Jesus Himself provides that path to God.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: I’ll tell you an interesting story about that, we were talking about Fox News earlier. One of my best friends early on at Fox News was the late Alan Colmes, and he was kind of the resident liberal at Fox. He was Jewish, and he would always when he had me on his show allowed me to share the Gospel. And so, I was sharing that very truth that there is only one way to God through faith in Christ. And he said, “Pastor isn’t that a hateful message to somebody like me who is a Jew?” I said, “Alan just imagine that you awaken in the middle of the night, your house was on fire. A fireman broke through the burning door and said, ‘Follow me, Alan, there is one way out of this burning house? Would you accuse him of being intolerant and hateful because he insisted there is only one way out? No, you would follow him, and you would thank him.” And you know Alan had no response to that. The last conversation I had with him before he died, he said, “You know Pastor, you’ve told me for years that there is only one way to God through faith in Christ, and now I found out my Jewish roommate in college is a Messianic Jew and has come to faith in Christ. I’m not sure I have a chance.”
Tim Moore: Well, praise the Lord! You at least laid down truth, and of course it is up to each individual as to what to do with that.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: That’s right.
Tim Moore: Well, an organization called, Vision America presented you with their distinguished Daniel Award for what they called, “Standfast commitment and boldness in proclaiming the uncompromising Word of God.” And Dr. Reagan once observed to you, “The truths of God’s Word are more important than hurt feelings.” Today the subjects that are deemed off limits by our culture seem to be multiplying, or at least the subjects that are opposed to a Christian perspective on worldview. So, how hard is it to stand firm in the face of such opposition from our culture?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: You know one of my mentors was Dr. Howard Hendricks from Dallas Theological Seminary. And he used to tell about when he went to a guest church one time he was standing behind the pulpit and he noticed that the pastor had put a little plaque on the front of the pulpit that only the speaker could see, and it said, “What in the world are you trying to do to these people?” And it was a good reminder for every preacher, before you speak what are you trying to do with these people?
Tim, when we share God’s truth with people we are not trying to hurt people. What we are trying to do for people is to help them. The message of trusting in Christ as your Savior is not a hateful or a hurtful message, it’s the only way to eternal life. To tell people that marriage is between a man and a woman, and it is a lifetime commitment, that is not a hateful message, God designed marriage. He said, this is how it works. When you tell people God created you male or female, not male, female, or question mark, that’s not a hateful message, that’s helping you understand your God given purpose. So, I think the way you have confidence in speaking God’s truth is to be absolutely convicted that what you are going to do is out of love and it is going to help that person.
Tim Moore: That is very well said. I observed a comment from Dietrich Bonhoeffer on these topics of standing firm, he said it this way, he said, “Who stands firm? Only the one for whom the final standard is not reason, his principles, his conscious, his freedom, his virtue, but who is ready to sacrifice all these when in faith and sole allegiance to God he is called to obedient and responsible action.” And obviously Pastor Bonhoeffer did act responsibly, and obediently to God even through the course of his life, and so, you have followed in that same footstep in terms of being obedient and taking responsible action.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Well, that is a great example of Bonhoeffer. And you know as you read that quote I thought about Jesus comments. He said, “Don’t fear those who can only destroy the body, fear the one who is able to destroy the body and the soul.” And I think that is the key. If you live with the fear of God, you really don’t care what other people think.
Tim Moore: Well, very, very true, sir. Pastor one of the things that you have commented on in the past is that some of your harshest criticisms are held out for fellow pastors who are unwilling to rock the cultural boat. And I dare say you probably get a lot of blowback from that sector as well. There is an old Chinese proverb that says, “He who stands on tiptoes cannot stand firm.” And you said, “Wimpy pastors produce wimpy Christians, and that is why we are losing this culture war.” How bad is the condition infecting the American church today?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Let me give you a good illustration of that. There is a Gallup poll that just came out that says that 70% of American’s now support same-sex marriage. Back when Gallup first started polling on this in 1996 it was 27%. It has changed to 70%. There is only one group you can blame for this, it’s not the non-Christians, it’s Christians. Instead of the Church influencing the world, we’ve allowed the world to influence the Church. And the fact is it starts with pastors in the pulpit, many have been afraid to teach what the Bible says about that issue. And it means that we are sliding into immorality.
And you say, “Well, Robert why are you hung up on that? Is that homophobic?” No. It’s a great example. There is nothing the Bible is more clear about than that God creates people male and female, and that sex is between a male and a female. You can’t read the Scripture and not come away with that. And when Christians embrace same-sex marriage, what they are basically saying is, “I couldn’t care less what the Bible says. This is what I believe. This is what I want.” And that is a rebellion against God that doesn’t just stop with same-sex marriage, it explains why nearly 60% of evangelical Christians believe there is more than one way to God other than faith in Christ. It all starts in the pulpit.
Tim Moore: Well, going back to what we talked about the Garden itself, Satan undermined the credibility of God’s Word, did God really say? And today he’s attacked what God created, that is man as being a special creature amongst all the creation. Establishing men and women as distinct from one another, and setting apart marriage as a special relationship of covenant between a man and a woman. And all of those things are under attack today.
Well, Pastor Jeffress you are such a tremendous writer in quantity and quality, and in impact, and one of your books that we actually hope to feature in association with this particular episode of Christ in Prophecy was entitled, Twilight’s Last Gleaming, and you talked about the implosion of America. In it you wrote this, “I believe America’s collapse is inevitable.” And you reflected on the controlled demolition of five buildings here at the First Baptist campus, and then documented four consecutive explosions that have, quote, “so weakened the moral and spiritual structure and foundation of our country that our inevitable collapse is certain.” Where do we stand today? Have any more explosions rocked our society? And are we on the brink of, or perhaps in the midst of a cataclysmic collapse?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Yeah, people got really upset when I started speaking about America’s coming implosions. Pastor, don’t you believe revival is possible? And so forth and so forth. And I used the illustration of what we did around here. When we took down these five blocks worth of buildings the people told us, the demolition people, all you have to do is attach 200 pound of dynamic to key structural supports in each of the buildings, you explode the dynamite and then the law of physics takes over and the buildings will collapse under their own weight.
And I used that as an analogy that over the last 70 years the Supreme Court has made three disastrous decisions that have destroyed the moral and the spiritual infrastructure of our country. Engle v. Vitale; taking out prayer. Roe v. Wade; legitimacy of abortion. And then Obergefell v. Hodges; same-sex marriage. When you take out prayer, out of the schools, when you legalize the murder of the unborn, when you change the definition of marriage, our moral spiritual collapse is inevitable. And by the way I don’t think any of those decision will be reversed. You will not see any of them reversed. The gay marriage issue is done. I think the abortion issue is done. I know people disagree with that, but as long as 70% of Americans continue to oppose the overthrow of Roe it is not going to happen. And I think that we are not going to see religious freedom in schools either as we keep going this way.
Now, I’m not doom and gloom. I believe there are some things we can do to push back and stave off that inevitable collapse. But we need to remember time is limited, and our goal is to share the Gospel with as many people as possible. God knows when the end is coming. And that is why I appreciate the ministry of Lamb & Lion Ministries so much, you do not hesitate to tell people the truth, the hard truth, but you wrap it in love.
Tim Moore: Well, we certainly intend to always do that. Speaking of the world coming to an end, or the Lord coming back more appropriately for those who have put their faith in him. A few years ago, you had another book called, Perfect Ending. And you emphasize that while we cannot know exactly when Jesus will return, Christians should not slip into a kind of apathetic Panmillennialist attitude figuring it will all just pan out in the end. You contended that the study of God’s Prophetic Word blesses us with details about what the end times will look like and offers us peace in the here and now, and actually draws us closer to the Lord as a relationship as we await His return. So, if anything 2021 has given rise to even greater risks, greater threats to religious liberty and the potential for more anxiety. And yet, we are called to have peace which passes all understanding. So, what would you say to our viewers today?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Well, I would say first of all don’t hesitate to study prophecy and the book of Revelation. I’m preaching through it right now, on Pathway to Victory verse-by-verse. You know people have a funny idea that somehow it is too complicated for anybody to understand. Well, if God didn’t want us to understand, why did He make the only book of the Bible with a blessing for those who read and understand it be the book of Revelation? This book, Perfect Ending is an attempt to help people understand not the when of these things that are going to happen, but the order in which they are going to take place. And while it is true the short-term forecast is stormy and turbulent. The long term forecast is great for those who know Christ.
Tim Moore: It certainly is. The thing that I always remind people, they get a blessing not just for reading, but also heeding.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: That’s right.
Tim Moore: And that begs a questions, how do you heed a book of prophecy? And I say the first way you heed it is by believing it. Believing what the Lord has said is your first step of heeding what He has told us will come to pass soon and very soon. Well, I’ve got one more question that I would like to ask you, and it may be the most sensitive of them all, Pastor Jeffress, because many of our viewers may not be aware that America first caught site of you in a very unusual introduction. So, tell us about the first time that you were featured on a nationwide broadcast.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Well, it is a funny thing. It was back in 1986 and my wife and I had gone to our first church, it was a little country seat town out in west Texas. And we needed a new car and didn’t have a money for a new car. And so, I thought, how could I get some money quickly to buy a new car? And I said, “What if I go on a game show and try to win as much cash as I could?” I found a gameshow that offered the most cash. Took the last $200 we had in our checking account, bought a ticket for Hollywood. Went out on a Friday afternoon, auditioned with 350 other people. Got picked to be one of the three contestant. Went on the show called, “Card Sharks” and we tapped all day Saturday, and I flew back Sunday to preach. I ended up being the four day champion and winning enough money to buy the car. Now, the only thing was it was tapped, and I had to figure out how to get the courage to tell my deacons what I had done. The funny thing, Tim is they still play that on the Game Show Network, and about every six months our telephone switch board starts lighting up at the church and people say, “Is that your pastor?” It just proves the adage be careful, your sins will find you out.
Tim Moore: They certainly will. They certainly will. Well, I was going to ask what you did with the money? I take it was enough to cover the cost of a car back in 1986. And Pastor do you still consider yourself a card shark?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: I like the title Pastor better these days.
Tim Moore: Well, for what it is worth most people think of the phrase card shark as a S-H-A-R-K, in the original meaning it was card sharp, meaning you were very sharp at playing cards. So, whether or not you are sharp at playing cards today, I will observe you have proven to wield the Living Word of God which is sharper than any two edged sword with great skill. And for that we are all grateful and blessed. Well, Pastor Jeffress we are excited to see what else you are going to produce in the months and years to come as the Lord stays His coming. So, what is your next book project?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Well, I had a brand new book that releases September 1st it is called, Invincible. And it is talking about conquering the mountains that separate us from the blessed life. You know in the Bible mountains are a metaphor for difficult situations and challenges. And while we can’t actually remove a mountain, we can conquer it by using God’s Word. So, I talk about conquering the mountains of bitterness, of grief, of anxiety, mountains that people are still dealing with right now, and showing how God’s Word can help us experience the abundant life Christ wants for each of us.
Tim Moore: Fantastic. I will look forward to getting a copy. I will tell you this when I was in Israel just a few years ago, our guide pointed out to us some of the circular little pathways around the hills, and said, “You all see those?” And they were everywhere so we said, “Of course.” They were sheep paths. He said, “Notice how they go. They don’t go up the mountain, sheep go around the mountain, and the shepherd leads them around the mountain ever higher. If you try to go straight up the sheep would fall over.” And so, when it says the Lord will lead us in paths of righteousness, and the Lord being our shepherd, often time it is in a path that we can’t see the final destination, but in trusting Him we get ever higher, and He takes us to even better pasture.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Isn’t that great. I wished I had that for my book before I turned it in.
Tim Moore: Well, for a future article. Well, thank you, sir. Anything else you would like to share with our viewers about how to connect with your ministry here?
Dr. Robert Jeffress: You can access our program “Pathway to Victory” by going to ptv.org, all of the messages are there, both audio and video. And they are available free of charge. Thank you.
Tim Moore: Well, Pastor it has been a delight to be here. So, I hope that we will cross paths again, either here at First Baptist Dallas, or at our campus just north of here. We wish you continued success in proclaiming the everlasting Word of God and bringing glory and honor and to Him. So, thank you very much for hosting me today. And we’ll look forward to cross paths again.
Dr. Robert Jeffress: Thank you so much.
Tim Moore: Yes, sir.
How Then Shall We Live Segment
Tim Moore: Pastor Robert Jeffress’ insightful warnings to America are a perfect balance of urgency and hope, in the person of Jesus Christ. For a gift of only $20, you can get a copy of his tremendous book, Twilight’s Last Gleaming. Just call the number on the screen or visit our online store. As we’ve discussed the threats multiplying around us, we referenced Jesus’ role as our Good Shepherd. Not only does that phrase harken back to David’s wonderful Psalm 23, it should remind us that God foreshadowed His role as our caring shepherd throughout Scripture.
Abel, the righteous son of Adam and Eve was a keeper of flocks, a shepherd. His sacrifice of the firstlings of his flock and their fat portions pleased the Lord, but provoked jealousy and anger in his brother Cain.
Abram was also a keeper of flocks, and his obedience when God called him to “follow where I will lead you” set him apart. It was that choice to believe God, as demonstrated by his willing obedience, that led Abram to be considered righteous.
Isaac and Jacob, later known as Israel, also shepherded flocks that multiplied and grew, manifesting God’s blessing on this chosen lineage. God later raised up prophets, some of whom also began as shepherds.
The most famous shepherd in the Old Testament was David, who was anointed as a ruddy youth and promised a kingdom, and a greater heir to follow.
All of these individuals served as foreshadows of the greatest Shepherd who would come. Jesus referred to Himself as a shepherd, and said that like sheep who recognize their master’s voice, those who belong to Him will heed His voice and follow Him.
We like to think that God’s analogy is meant to present a benign, pastoral scene. But one of our Israeli guides used to be a shepherd. And he pointed out that God chose an apt metaphor for his flock of followers, because sheep are somewhat dim-witted. Without the constant care and protection of the shepherd, they constantly go astray, get into trouble, and behave contrary to their own good.
Similarly, we are more dependent on our Good Shepherd than most of us even realize. Without Him, we will never find the pastures of green grass. We will live parched lives as we wander aimlessly looking for cool water. And we will tend to stray and find ourselves cut off from the flock and susceptible to the preying attacks of the roaring lion that seeks to devour us.
But, if we will follow where Jesus leads, keeping our eyes on Him and obeying His commands, He will lead us ever upward, even if it is on one of the circuitous paths Robert Jeffress and I spoke about today.
Threats are multiplying right now. The wolves are circling. The lion is looking for an opportunity to pounce.
Have you heard the Master’s voice? Do you know the Good Shepherd? Wherever He leads, are you committed to follow?
If that describes you, then you will know true peace that is everlasting.
Well, that’s our show for today. I pray that you have been blessed as we’ve honored our Good Shepherd.
Until next week, this is Tim Moore for Lamb & Lion Ministries, saying once again, “Shalom and Godspeed!!”
End of Program