Israel’s Return Precedes Christ’s Return

Part 1: What is the greatest of the end times signs?

Tim Moore: Well, folks, we have actually brought in the resident expert from Lamb & Lion Ministries, at least the man who started all this. Nathan and I obviously are here because of Dr. David Reagan. And so we brought Dave himself to answer some of our questions while we are gathered at the Pre-Trib Conference here in Dallas, Texas. So, Dave, thanks, as always, for being a part. We’re excited just to hear your perspective.

Dr. Reagan: It’s good to be with you.

Tim Moore: Well, you’ve not ever been very, very far, but we’re always glad when you come back.

Nathan Jones: Well speaking of a Pre-Trib Conference, weren’t you one of the founding members or at least the founding idea of the conference?

Dr. Reagan: I was 31 years ago. And we had 30 people there.

Tim Moore: Wow! It’s gotten a lot bigger since.

Nathan Jones: So you and Tim LaHaye?

Dr. Reagan: Yeah, Tim LaHaye, Chuck Missler, Dave Hunt, and some people. And in those early years, it usually every meeting was just a very short meeting and it always ended up to be a debate between Chuck Missler and Dave Hunt. They always went after each other.

Tim Moore: Well, we have a lot of things we could debate about, but really, we are in agreement that the Lord’s coming soon. And so what is the sign that you think Dave is the greatest sign or the convergence of signs that we’re witnessing right now that He is coming?

Dr. Reagan: Well, if I had to select an individual sign, I would say it has to do with the signs that relate to the nation of Israel, because all of the end time Bible prophecy focuses upon the nation of Israel. I always say Israel is God’s prophetic time clock because in the Bible it will say this is going to happen in the end times when that happens to the Jews, and this going to happen when that happens to Jews. Even Jesus, in His Olivet Discourse mentioned, He said, “You know, watch Jerusalem.” And He said, “Jerusalem is going to be under the Gentiles for a long time, but when Jerusalem is no longer under the Gentiles, I’m coming back.”

Tim Moore: Wow. Yeah in our lifetime, or at least in my lifetime, 1967, when the Jewish people in the nation of Israel reclaimed the Old City and they are there to stay.

Dr. Reagan: Yes. And the interesting thing about that is that most churches are sound asleep about all this. And instead of getting their people ready for the Lord’s return or teaching a preaching pop psychology. You know, number one question we get seems at our ministry is: I live in so-and-so place, do you know a Bible believing church because they’re so few and far between these days? But the interesting thing is that in Israel, the Orthodox Jews are expecting the Messiah any moment because they know that their Scriptures say He’s coming when they’re back in the land and back in the city. So they’re expecting it. And they’re going to be surprised not by His coming, but by who His identity is what’s going to surprise them.

Nathan Jones: Yes, absolutely.

Tim Moore: Well, we were talking just earlier with Mondo Gonzales, who said even of late the Sanhedrin, which has been brought back into existence, they have actually begun dialoging with evangelical Christians to say, now what is it that you believe? And they’re grappling with some of these things. So I think we really are on the cusp of a breakthrough, even within the Jewish culture.

Dr. Reagan: And as you well know, the Orthodox Jews in Israel are doing everything they can to prepare for the Messiah. They’re getting everything together for the Temple. They’re training the priests and so forth. I mean, they really believe the Messiah is coming soon.

Nathan Jones: Earlier this year, you gave a fantastic presentation. We’ll put the link below to one of our conferences where you presented what the Messianic, excuse me the Orthodox Rabbis are doing.

Tim Moore: Yes, all the things they’re doing.

Nathan Jones: What are some of those?

Dr. Reagan: Well, the formation of the Sanhedrin, which they had tried several times before, didn’t click. But boy, they’ve got it going now. And the Temple Institute in Jerusalem, which is making all the clothes for the priests, they’ve made the high priest’s clothes. His shield in the front with the various ornaments on it. His crown. They have built the table of show bread. They’ve got the candlestick. Which cost about a million dollars. A huge candlestick, made out of gold.

Tim Moore: You know what I found out just recently? That candlestick was actually paid for by a very wealthy Ukrainian Jew. So even as you see Ukraine in the news today, it was a Ukrainian Jew, the leader of a Jewish community there that paid for that menorah.

Dr. Reagan: In fact, one of the leaders recently said that when they get the signal to go, they can put up the temporary temple, which they’re going to put up first within four hours. They have everything ready. Everything ready is going to be the tabernacle of Moses, which was a tent temple, which they’ll put up there and then start building their real temple around it. But they’re going to offer sacrifices immediately.

Nathan Jones: And what do you think will be the prophetic event that will allow the Jewish people back on the Temple Mount?

Dr. Reagan: Well, it’s only speculation I can give you because I don’t know. But I’ve been writing a book on the nine wars and the end times. And one of the things when I started writing about Gog and Magog, one of the things that jumped off the page at me is it says that when the Russians and all of their allies come against Israel and land on the mountains of Israel, that God will destroy them in certain ways. And it says the main thing He’s going to use is a gigantic earthquake that it says point blank will level every wall in Israel. And I think that earthquake is just going to collapse the Dome of the Rock. And then the Antichrist will come in, make his agreement with the Jews, and bang, they’ll start building their temple.

Part 2: Is Israel an accident of history?

Tim Moore: Next up is Pete Garcia, a noted prophecy teacher and author who will prove to us that Israel’s rebirth is no accident.

Nathan Jones: The signs of the end times point to the fact that Jesus Christ is coming soon. But what are exactly these end times signs? We have Pete Garcia here, author of many Bible prophecy books and chapters. He’s joined Tim and me here at the Pre-Trib Research Center Conference in Dallas, Texas. Hey, man. So good to have you here. So Pete’s going to tell us a little about what these signs that Jesus gave us that point to His soon return.

Pete Garcia: All right. Well, Charles Ryrie coined a phrase back a few years ago, “sine qua non” without which there is not. Talking about dispensationalism, talking about the importance of Israel. And I think kind of taking that and bringing that over to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24, I look at the rebirth of Israel as the without which there isn’t, all the other signs that are given in the Olivet Discourse, the 11 or so that are given there.

Nathan Jones: So, when you say the Olivet Discourse, that’s the Jesus teaching in Matthew 24 about the end times.

Pete Garcia: Yeah, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21. And so in recent years, people have tried to kind of dismiss or downplay the importance of Israel. But they’ll talk about the other signs wars, rumors of war, the deception, the lawlessness and all these other things that are given there. But I think without Israel back in the picture, none of those things really have any context, because we’ve always had wars, we’ve always had deception, we’ve always had lawlessness to certain degrees in certain places. But what makes it important and it gives us context of where we are in history on God’s prophetic calendar, is that Israel’s back as a nation, back in her land, just as it was prophesied, Amos 9 and other places.

Nathan Jones: And why is that miraculous? I mean, has any other nation in history come back after being dead for 1,900 years?

Tim Moore: No.

Pete Garcia: I don’t think so.

Tim Moore: You know what is miraculous to me as well, not only the fact that Israel came back, but for all the years of the Church Age, there were Christians who believed the Word of God, even though they said, I don’t imagine how Israel’s going to come back. But the Lord said, it’s going to happen, so I trust that it will. And even back into the 19th century, the 1800s and the early 1900s, there were Christian Zionists who were supportive of Israel reestablishing itself as a nation, because that’s what the Word of God said, so they were faithful. And that’s why today, even as sometimes we don’t understand how it’s all going to come to pass, if we believe the Word of God, then we can be instruments of Him affecting even world history today.

Pete Garcia: Yeah, I think of William Blackstone, is that his name? 1908 or 1909. His book, “Jesus Is Coming” said that Israel had to be a nation again. The great Clarence Larkin, who is my spiritual grandfather, if you want to call it that. I mean, that’s one of the first books that I’ve ever really studied spoke about Israel becoming a nation again. Scofield, all the greats back in the 1800s spoke about Israel having to become a nation again.

Nathan Jones: Why does it have to become a nation again? Why, prophetically, if folks don’t know? Because you’ll hear people all the time say, well, Israel’s just a modern accident. Or like you said, Christian Zionists just wanted it to happen and they worked the politics to make it happen. And it bears no significance to the future. But why is it significant to God?

Pete Garcia: Well, God, through the angel Gabriel, prophesied to Daniel that there would be 70 weeks of years for the nation of Israel, and this would be in context to a covenant relationship. We know that 69 weeks of years were ended with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, you know, Him being cut off there in 9:26 or verse Daniel 9:26 not the year 926, but he was cut off. And then there was this verse 9:27 which talks about this covenant that’s going to have to take place and all this, but we know historically, that never happened. There wasn’t anything between the death of Christ in around 30 A.D. to the destruction of Jerusalem in the temple in 70 A.D. Nothing fulfills that. And we know that after that point there wasn’t a temple in existence, and it’s still not in existence till today.

Nathan Jones: But it is coming.

Pete Garcia: It is coming. And what’s unique is that when you marry that up with other prophetic passages in Ezekiel 37, the Valley of the Dry Bones, where God’s telling Ezekiel that the nation of Israel is going to come back, but they’re going to come back in unbelief. And we see that today. So everything that the Bible has talked about that has to take place is taking place. And it gives context to all these other signs that we’re seeing.

Tim Moore: It certainly does. I think we have to have a degree of humility. But at the same time, we have to trust that if we read and believe the Word of God, then it is true. And so even as the setup to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24, Jesus has been walking through Jerusalem. And what happens there in the first verse, and they see all the buildings, all the great and grand edifice of the Temple that the wall that we can still go and visit today in Jerusalem. And His disciples are amazed at just the grandeur of it. But He says, “All these things will not be left one stone upon another.” And it is later when He is sitting on the Mount of Olives therefor the Olivet Discourse, that the disciples come to Him in verse three of chapter 24 and say, “Tell us when will these things happen?” The destruction that He had described earlier and what will be the sign of your coming in of the end of the age? And although the disciples at that moment didn’t have the big picture, so to speak, they still didn’t understand everything Jesus had already said to them, they at least understood those three things. And the Lord didn’t say, Wait, wait, wait, fellows, you got it all wrong I’m not coming back. No, no the end of the age. No, He did not disagree with their big picture understanding. And so He went on to describe the signs of His coming and of the end of the age. And I think that’s instructive to us. We may not have every detail figured out. I know I don’t. And Nathan and I probably would both agree in that regard. But we trust the Word of God and we trust what He said, that He is coming back and that there is going to be an end even to this very sinful and darkening age we’re living in right now.

Pete Garcia: Yeah, and I love the fact that the Bible does give us an outline. It gives us these specific hard points that we’re going to see that will take place, that will be mile markers, if you will. And there are things that do catch us by surprise. Obviously, the events of 2020 caught us by a lot of prophecy instructors by surprise. But everything that’s happening, all of the signs that we’re seeing, all of the convergence, these are the signs piling upon other signs that are indicative of the birth pangs. Right. That comes with increasing intensity and frequency, and it’s going to come to a culmination point. But everything we’re seeing is always trending towards prophetic fulfillment.

Tim Moore: And at an accelerating pace lately.

Pete Garcia: Yeah.

Nathan Jones: The birth is the end of the Tribulation, the return of Jesus Christ to set up His kingdom on this earth, where He rules and reigns from Jerusalem hence you need a nation of Israel, though refined as a remnant that believes in Christ. And it’s all heading towards that. And it’s going in frequently more frequently, more intensely. Like birth pangs, as you said.

Pete Garcia: And, you know, being military, I look back kind on everything. You start from the event and you get backwards plans to wherever you’re going to go to or where you’re where you’re starting from. So in order for there to be a temple that’s got to be desecrated, there has to be a temple, right? There has to be a Jewish people in control of the Temple Mount that want to build this temple. Jewish people have to be in control of Jerusalem, have to be in control of the nation. I mean, if you just kind of work your way backwards from that event in Matthew 24:15, where in the midpoint of the Tribulation, we’re seeing all these things. And I think even today we’re starting to see this fervor amongst Israelis that are that are longing. You know, the rabbis keep talking about being in a Messianic age, this a Messianic era. And I think that’s stirring something in the people there to want to build a temple, to want to kind of go to change the status quo and kind of take that next steps.

Tim Moore: And I think one of the key things that we point to, Bible prophecy, as you said, you understand an event and then you work backwards to kind of build up to where that that is leading to. Well, Bible prophecy already knows what the end is, and it tells us what the buildup is. So as we study Bible prophecy, the Lord’s already foretold and foreshadowed and all we have to do is read, study, there’s that five letter word again to have understanding. And there are certain things we will not understand. But, you know, God has revealed aspects to us that He wants us to understand. And so we should discern that the end is drawing near. And if you’re watching this program today, I can assure you all of us are looking forward to not just the birth pangs, the signs for the sake of signs, we’re looking forward to the coming of Lord Jesus Christ for His Church, as promised in Scripture, because He said He will rescue us from the wrath to come. That’s the Tribulation Nathan spoke about. And so we hope that you too have put your faith in Jesus Christ so that you can be delivered from the wrath to come and go, to be with our glorious Bridegroom who is coming for His bride, the Church soon and very soon. And there are no signs that have been fulfilled before that glorious event.

Pete Garcia: No it could happen at any moment. In fact, I was hoping it would happen today at some point.

Part 3: What is the significance of the Red Heifers?

Nathan Jones: Mondo Gonzales of Prophecy Watchers will now join us. I actually first met Mondo at the Pre-Trib Conference about a year before. And as I’ve gotten to know him I’ve been quite impressed with how God has blessed Mondo with great skill in teaching the Bible. And He always exudes the joy of the Lord lifting us up in our discussions.

Tim Moore: Mondo and I have traded articles in our respective magazines on the so called Red Heifers. We asked him to comment on their significance and why it’s so important that Christians today reach out to the Jewish people with the soul saving Good News of Yeshua the Messiah.

Nathan Jones: Well, welcome again to another Prophetic Perspective and to a conversation with Mondo Gonzales as we are here together at the Pre-Trib Conference in Dallas, Texas. Mondo, always a delight to be with you. We know you’ve been working on some exciting things relative to some of the buzz that’s in the news right now with what’s happening in Israel. Tell us about what you’ve been working on.

Mondo Gonzales: So as everybody knows, back in September, five red heifers were sent over to Israel from here in Texas. And so I’ve been working on some research material just to kind of provide an overall framework of what the Christians should think. And again, you guys have been involved in that in the sense of shaping the average Christian is asking, well, what do I do with this information? We know that it’s part of the prophetic fulfillment. How should I respond? Should I jump on board? Should I support it? Should I not? It’s really, I think, a helpful conversation.

Nathan Jones: Well, these red heifers, what is the significance? Why don’t we start with that? Because we’ve heard in the News why do we need these red cows?

Mondo Gonzales: So this is good because biblically, you have the red heifer ceremony in Numbers 19. So, but we take Scripture solid, but what we’re dealing with now is in addition to that is the feeling and the thinking of the Modern Rabbinic Movement or the Orthodox Movement or even the religious Jewish movement in Israel, the Temple Mount Faithful, the Temple Mount Institute, the Temple Institute, these are these groups that have been really for the last 30 years at least, trying to find the red heifer. Why? Because their goal is to build a temple. They believe, according to Moses, that’s the only way they can connect with God. The Temple was destroyed in AD 70. So you have their framework and then you have our perspective, which we understand the Bible does say, Matthew 24:15 Jesus talks about it. Paul talks about in 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation 11, even Daniel. So you have these four witnesses in Scripture, that there’s going to be a temple during the Tribulation Period. So we’re looking at that fact. And then through deduction, in inference we’re moving backwards to say, well, how does that happen? It doesn’t just voila, appear so what are the steps that happen so that when we see that. So us watching the events unfold, enter the red heifer. So the red heifer traditionally is meant to purify those that are unclean.

Nathan Jones: The cow itself?

Mondo Gonzales: Well, the ashes. So in Numbers 19, they burn it.

Nathan Jones: Rub against a cow that’s the ceremony.

Tim Moore: Holy cow, huh?

Mondo Gonzales: So they burn it in a pit. They take the ashes, they mix it with water. And now they have this opportunity where you can spread it and cleanse people that are unclean.

Tim Moore: So to a degree, a lot of Christians have always focused on the temple, which is a building which is a structure. But the Jewish mind is before we can get to the structure, we have to focus on again, Jewish thinking, the heart. And so the way that we purify the heart and the land, the real estate to be available, even to build the temple, is to have the red heifer whose ashes will lend to purification according to Numbers 19.

Mondo Gonzales: Yes, bingo.

Tim Moore: Okay. Bingo. Some of the evangelical expectation of a temple is preceded by the purification. And we don’t agree with that with the fact that you can’t be purified other than by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Mondo Gonzales: Yes.

Tim Moore: But we’re trying to understand the Jewish mindset in preparing for the temple itself.

Mondo Gonzales: And I think, God, I mean, we know as well that what’s God’s goal with the Jewish people? He wants to save them. I mean, the Tribulation Period is the time of Jacob’s Trouble. They’re going to have a long talk during the seven year period, and His goal is at the end, all Israel will be saved. And so God knows as all of us were stiff necked. But I mean, the Bible says that you have this group of people, His goal is to introduce them to Jesus, for them to consider, and it takes seven years for them to come to that point. But they’re working from their frame of reference, which is Moses and the temple. And so God’s like, okay, well, we’re I’m going to work through your frame of reference in order to get you to my Son. And so that requires all these other pre things. And so the red heifers that we see now have been there. Again, you can go back and they’ve been in motion, many of them are disqualified. I mean, I’ve written about them many times over the years and like, oh, let’s watch it, because what you have is there’s a timing factor, too, which I think is pretty fascinating because in Numbers 19, it doesn’t give you the age of, there’s two Hebrew words, one for one for a male or one for an adult cow or an aged cow and one for a calf. So it talks about it, an aged cow. So in rabbinic thinking, again, that’s what matters two years and eight days, that’s how old they have to be. And depending on the rabbis argue that.

Nathan Jones: And even the red heifer part, they’ve added specifications on how many white hair and how many of their.

Mondo Gonzales: Yup, that is all in there.

Nathan Jones: So they took something easy and made it more complex.

Mondo Gonzales: Oh, yeah.

Tim Moore: Much more complex and many other rules that you just think, well, goodness, who can keep up with this?

Mondo Gonzales: But it’s exciting because what’s interesting about it is that the political and the religious climate within the nation, Israel itself is shifting. I mean, you go back 25 years ago, 30 years ago, it was very common within the rabbinic mindset, you were not allowed to go on the Temple Mount because that was just a rule. And if you did, you were ostracized. Man that is not the case now. Even that climate has shifted. There’s thousands of Jews, mainly religious Jews, that are going up on the Temple Mount every year, and they’re doing their secret prayers. So even the fact that you see this shift. Now with the latest government in Israel, it’s the most religious ever in the history of Israel, 64 seats. Netanyahu feels, I got this from an interview I did yesterday where this person heard from Netanyahu himself that he feels it’s his destiny, Netanyahu to build the third temple now.

Nathan Jones: Wow. So, Mondo then is the red heifer, the last piece of the puzzle? I mean, with that, can they now start rebuilding the temple?

Mondo Gonzales: From a Jewish perspective, I would say from their thinking, yes, this is what they’re waiting for. And I think in addition that all these things are, you know, simultaneously happening is the political wheel that you see of Netanyahu’s perspective of the new religious government. But you also see the biggest challenge is what’s going to be the response of the Muslims, because according to the plans that I’ve seen, they’re going to build the temple next to the Dome of the Rock.

Nathan Jones: Next to the Dome?

Mondo Gonzales: With a wall that would separate. You know, does that go along with Revelation 11 where it says “leave the outer court for the Gentiles?” Maybe, I don’t know. How that all works, all we know is that’s the thinking, that seems to be the current thinking as the plans, the designs are done. So all the temple stuff, all those other things are done. But what’s holding it? The red heifer ashes are what’s holding back the opportunity to cleanse as you mentioned, the real estate. But politically speaking, the Sunnis now with the Abrahamic Accords, they are buddy buddy with Israel. They need Israel to keep Iran at bay, they’re the Shiites. But they’re coming to the point now where they are not opposing the idea of Israel having a temple because they need it. So what I perceive or envision is Netanyahu being a very skilled politician is not going to, he might not even, let’s say, bomb Iran and neutralize them until he gets concessions from the Sunnis about some of the things that are happening there, because that’s his leverage if he neutralizes them, they’re going to go, whoa, hey, it’s done.

Tim Moore: I can actually validate what you’re saying about the shifting dynamic within the Middle East, especially the Muslim countries that are immediate and nearby, not the Palestinians, who as a whole is another issue. But there was an imam from Saudi Arabia who made this statement, “if Israelis take an inch of land from Mecca or Medina I will be the first to oppose them. That’s our land. But if they want their own land back, only a dishonest crook and a lying thief would deny them the right of return. Jerusalem is not ours,” meaning the Muslims “and never was. Period.” Wow. That is a shift from years gone by. So we can see the dynamics come into play that we never would have imagined, and yet our own administration seems to want to kowtow to the Iranians and others. Let’s get back to another point. All this red heifer discussion is in the minds of fervent Israelis and Jews who are committed to rebuilding the Temple. The required step to be able to purify the land themselves. They even have ways that they’re trying to purify young priests to raise up, to even be able to sacrifice the heifer. But for those of us who are Christians, we realize that all this is, to a degree misguided because it doesn’t immediately point to Jesus Christ, that really is the only means of salvation. And so part of our manifestation of love for the Jews is to share the Messiah with them right now.

Mondo Gonzales: Absolutely. There’s no doubt. We have this interesting dynamic because God doesn’t change His mind. He doesn’t have a dual covenant; you know a different covenant with the Jews. So we have the Scripture which tells us what’s going to be during this period. And then we have the truth of where salvation is and we’re trying to share with them the realities that, hey, this is you’re doing these things, but at the end of the day, it’s not going to provide you salvation. We know that. They aren’t saved through this third temple. They’re saved through what their actions do, and they bring and they get ground down, all the way until the Tribulation when they call out on the name of the Lord. Because Jesus said, “You’ll see Me again when you call, you know, blessed is He who comes.” So we see that. So we have this interesting tension as a Christian, we see the Prophetic Scriptures which are fact, but we also know that salvation is only through this way.

Nathan Jones: I ascribe to a Tim said, because to support the building of the Temple is supporting keeping people captured in a works based salvation that sends them to Hell. And so why would any Christian want to support that? The Messiah is Jesus Christ. Putting your faith and trust in Him is where the money should be put, at least in my opinion.

Closing

Tim Moore: As you can see, the greatest out of all the End Times signs has been the miraculous regathering of the Jewish people back to the Holy Land and the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

Nathan Jones: While the Rapture of the Church doesn’t need any event to happen before Christ comes to catch those saved up to Heaven because the Rapture is an imminent event. The Tribulation time period requires the nation of Israel to exist, and now it does. So that means that the Tribulation is right on the horizon, then the rapture of the Church is that much sooner. How exciting.

Tim Moore: You know it sure is, Nathan. And we hope that you too, have become just as excited as we are. In our next episode, we’ll return to the Pre-Trib Conference to explore yet another sign of the end times that points to the soon return of Jesus Christ, the Rise of the Antichrist. Teachers such as Jeff Kinley, J.B. Hixson, Jobe Martin and others will be joining us for this important look into the sudden rise of a one world government. The dangers that globalism places on our freedoms and how Christians can survive and thrive in these dark days.

Nathan Jones: You won’t want to miss this episode. Until then, look up and be watchful for the Lion of Judah is about to roar back onto the scene.

End of Program