Standing on Faithful Shoulders

Interview with Lee Brainard (Part 1)

Tim Moore: So, Lee, welcome back to Christ in Prophecy!

Lee Brainard: Good to be with you. Tim, Nathan.

Nathan Jones: So good again.

Tim Moore: Well, Lee, obviously we have a lot that we’ve covered over the past two weeks, and the bottom lines of those past two episodes is that Christ is faithful to Gentile believers who have believed in the promises of God to the house of Israel. And faithful believers, followers of Christ have also taken Jesus at His Word regarding the promise that He will come again soon.

Lee Brainard: Amen. And this really gives us encouragement as we go through life. If you come into this world knowing where you came from, why we’re here, and where we’re going as you sail through the stormy seas of life, you can have a stability you cannot otherwise have.

Tim Moore: That’s a good point. Well, is there any other point you guys would like to make as we reflect on Christian Zionism and the fact that it’s as old as the New Testament and this anticipation of the Lord’s coming prior to the Tribulation? Anything we left out in the last two weeks?

Nathan Jones: Well, I think one of the biggest signs of the End Times, the number one that Jesus gave us would be false prophets and false teachers. Also in the Book of Revelation, we learned that the end time phase of Church would be the church of Laodicea. Apathetic, lukewarm, thinks it’s rich and not. And, brother, I think all these different things that we’ve seen, this growing antisemitism in this church, this scoffing at the Rapture, is all because we’re seeing this end-times scenario. As the Church gets weaker and weaker, Israel gets stronger and stronger, and yet the Church is kind of resisting that transition.

Lee Brainard: Yeah, where is the promise of His coming? Where is the promise of the restoration of the Jews? Where is the promise of the Rapture? It’s all unbelief.

Tim Moore: It’s all unbelief. And, so again, taking God at His Word, those who have put trust in Christ should discount all the deception, all the propaganda that’s perpetrated in the world today. Obviously, I think Satan is behind it all. And we should stand on the Word of God, the promises of God, and obviously be looking for our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Well, we have recounted ways that Christians for 2,000 years have been faithful, from preserving the true Gospel to standing firm against apostasy and heresy, to suffering persecution, even to the point of martyrdom, on behalf of the faith. So what other examples would you guys recite of Christian faithfulness that you can personally recollect?

Lee Brainard: You’re speaking of–in my own life that people have poured into my life?

Tim Moore: Well, at this point, even from history.

Lee Brainard: Okay.

Tim Moore: But we’ll get to… I want to hear about your life too. But, from history, what are the examples of Christian faithfulness?

Lee Brainard: Well, for me, it’s a tremendous encouragement just to start with Martin Luther and the Reformation. Can you imagine being in this long lineage, like 1,200 years of just insane darkness since the days of Augustine, and you dare to stand up against that and teach salvation by faith alone? And you articulate the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice. Now, they didn’t recover at that time all the prophetic truths that we enjoy now, but that was the foundation.

Nathan Jones: One of the best books that was ever given to me is by Dr. Allan Walker. We’ve seen him at many conferences. And he used to work for Voice of the Martyrs. He gave me Foxe’s Book of Martyrs. And it’s like this. And I was like, “Ah, I don’t know if I want to read this.” But inside is the life stories of people, most of them we have never heard before.

I mean, of course we hear about the ones that, you know, go to China or, or India or what that, but mostly people who’ve given their lives for Jesus Christ and to proclaim the truth of the Bible. And the fact that we stand on all those shoulders for the last 2,000 years should humble us to the fact that we have it really well when you consider how many Christians have given up their lives for Jesus Christ.

Tim Moore: I think about some of the reformers who, again, tried to go back to Scripture. As a matter of fact, back in the day, the Catholic Church outlawed the reading of God’s Word. They chained the Bible to the altar in the church so no one could take it home and read it for themselves. It was in a language most people could not read or understand. And so when Bible translators began to take the Bible from Greek and Latin, which you can read, Lee, but most of us could not, and put it into English, many of them were burned at the stake. And, indeed, that’s why the Puritans wanted to found a place where they could practice a pure religion, and they came to the new world, America.

So even our founders escaped some of that oppression of the Catholic Church, of the state churches of Europe, to come here to practice true religion. And we stand on the shoulders, not only of Christians, but of Christian patriots who founded this nation to be a beacon, as a city shining on a hill. And what a great blessing that has been for us to be able to live in a place where we can worship God, where we can study His Word, and where we can pass down our faith even to our children.

So for just a moment, if you want to know how you can pass down your faith, obviously we hope you’re doing that within your own family and your own circle of friends, but here at Lamb & Lion Ministries, we have a number of people who have partnered with us to pass down the faith that we have that Jesus is coming soon and proclaim it to yet another generation if He tarries. Hear how you can become a Prophecy Partner.

Prophecy Partner Program

Announcer: As Lamb & Lion Ministries celebrates over 45 years of spreading the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus’s soon return, we hope you’ll join us to expand the kingdom of God. God’s prophetic Word offers hope to every believer as we eagerly await our Blessed Hope, but it also conveys a stark warning for unbelievers who don’t yet know Him, urging them to flee from the wrath to come and into the loving arms of our Savior before it’s too late.
God has raised up individuals around the world who share our love of the Lord and look forward to a soon return. These Prophecy Partners pray for us and provide the financial means for us to broadcast Christ in Prophecy on both television and radio and publish our bimonthly Lamplighter magazine and other books and resources.
For a commitment of at least $25 a month, our Prophecy Partners receive the Lamplighter, regular ministry updates, and special offers throughout the year. If you’ve been blessed by Lamb & Lion Ministries and would like to extend that blessing to others, we hope you’ll partner with us to share the exciting message that Jesus is coming soon!

Interview with Lee Brainard (Part 2)

Tim Moore: Well, fellas, obviously we stand, as you said, Nathan, on the shoulders of many giants, and Scripture recounts some of those. I’m reminded of what the writer Jude, who was none other than Judas, the brother of Jesus Christ, when he said that he was writing to contend earnestly for the faith once for all handed down to the saints. And he touches on the importance of clinging to the Gospel because already people were beginning to stray in the Early Church days. And so what is the essential faith that we refer to or that Jude refers to as our common salvation?

Lee Brainard: Well, I think it’s what we talked about in the previous episode, where you’ve got the whole message of redemption is the First Coming and the Second Coming. And the First Coming is Jesus Christ come in the flesh. God manifests in the flesh to die and be raised again and then to be the high priest in Heaven with the blood on the altar. That’s the First Coming, the payment for redemption.

The Second Coming, He brings the redemption to Jew and Gentile alike that He paid for at the First Coming and to bring the eternal life and to bring the kingdom that He promised. And if you don’t have both parts of these, you don’t have the whole message of redemption.

Tim Moore: I think it’s instructive that Paul, even though he was only in Thessalonica, we think, for a period of weeks, was not only sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but his anticipation of the return of Christ, which is why they wrote him and said, “Have we missed it? And he said, “No, no.” And so we have 1 and 2 Thessalonians. This was not an advanced course of study. Once you’ve been a Christian for many, many years, it was part of his gospel message to these brand new Christians.

Nathan Jones: And we’ve got to remember, the Book of Jude, the context of it is dealing with apostates. And so immediately, as soon as the Gospel was spread and the years started passing, we’re moving off into like, you know, the 60, 70, 80 AD, is that all sorts of false doctrine from Satan started pouring in, false believers creating their own doctrine and to be elevated above God, usually that’s what the apostles would condemn them for.

And so when we talk about this common salvation, it’s what he’s talking about, the biblical salvation of what Jesus taught. And we’ve got to throw all this heresy, and we’ve got to determine what heresy and apostasy is through the lens of what Scripture teaches.

Tim Moore: You know, I think it’s instructive, just today, folks, we gather every morning for a devotional, and just today, our devotional passage was from 2 Timothy Chapter 2, verse 17 and 18, where Paul calls out two men by name. I would hate to have my name listed in the Bible in this regard, because he says that these are men who have gone astray from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
And that’s why we have to still anticipate the Lord’s coming. It has not already happened. He has not brought the Church to Himself. There’s some who teach that. Clearly they upset the faith of some. It has not already taken place, but it is a promise that we should anticipate with great joy and eagerness.

Lee Brainard: Well, I do find it interesting that, in the Bible, leaving the Second Coming out or getting serious error on the Second Coming was regarded as serious error. It was regarded as heresy.

Nathan Jones: Yeah, it’s weird when you look at the old… I mean, for instance, you mentioned the Catholic Church burning people at the stake just for reading the Bible in English and all. They took doctrine that seriously. Today, if we have false teachers, false prophets, we just turn the channel or we don’t listen anymore. They’re not held accountable. Back then, you were held accountable. But not anymore.

And, you know, not that we meant as Christians, we should be judgmental, we should be gracious, but at the same time, we need to protect the faith. And I don’t mean by burning people at the stake, but we need to stand up and say, “Hey, that is not biblical what you’re teaching. “You’re leading people astray.”

Tim Moore: We need to hold one another accountable. Which is why, as iron sharpens iron, sometimes there’s friction and there’s sparks because we’re keeping our edge sharp and we’re, again, holding one another accountable for the faith once for all handed down to the saints.

You know, guys, I see a consistent theme throughout the New Testament in particular, as Jude, as already mentioned, as Paul, Peter, and even John, the writer of Luke and Acts, and Jesus Christ urged the Early Church to stand fast and not to stray from the faith. That tells me that not only is there a call to stand fast, but there’s an actual possibility if we would be deceived to stray from the faith.

And so in Revelation, Jesus warns within His letters to the churches that these churches, these Christians should repent, should return, and over and over again, we have His recount of how they have strayed from the faith.

Nathan Jones: Yeah, the Book of Revelation is really fantastic because these are Jesus’s personal letters to His churches. He talks about, He holds the stars, the angels over the churches. He walks among the seven lampstands. In other words, He never leaves the church. He’s always with us by His spirit. And He gives a personal message to each of these seven churches straight from the heart, and each one is encouraging.

Like, for instance, Ephesians, the first church, which you think would be on fire for Jesus, but as they’re trying to organize… You know what it’s like putting a ministry together, you’ll organize it and pretty soon the daily tasks become more important than who’s sending you on the task. And that’s what happened. He says, “Return to your first love, “repent and come back to me.” And I just love that picture from the Lord’s heart. So we can turn to the letters of Revelation to get God’s calling to us away from falling into heresy and apostasy.

Tim Moore: Absolutely.

Lee Brainard: And I find that this problem is a continual theme in the Church in general, in individuals in particular, that if we’re not careful, we are going to cool off, we’re going to lose that initial zeal. We’re not going to be excited about Jesus. We’re not going to be excited about salvation. I’ve seen so many young men that when they were young Christians two, three years in the faith, they looked like they were going to be giants for the Lord in the next decade or two. And yet five, six years down the road, they get married, they get a career, they get kids, and they taper off.

And we all know you’re going to lose some time that you have to commit to your family. You’re going to lose time you have to commit to your marriage and to your kids and to your job. But what do you do with the time beyond that? Where’s your heart affections? Just because you’re married and have a job and a career doesn’t mean you can’t be on fire for Jesus and do great things for the Lord.

Nathan Jones: Well, that’s why behind every great man is a great woman. And if you have a wife, who like y’all’s wives, my wife who absolutely loves Jesus, then I don’t think you have to lose that impetus. Because they’re there with a broom swatting you along to take them with you on that journey of serving the Lord.

Tim Moore: And obviously we have to keep our focus. I like what you said. Too many times we get distracted by other things that are rightful priorities. But our first priority should be Jesus Christ. Scripture says, even relative to our love of Christ, the love we have for others, whether it’s our family, our own children, should be regarded as hate by contrast. Again, we don’t hate our wife, our spouse, our children, but we should love the Lord our God with all our heart, all our mind, and obviously our first priority, Jesus Christ.

Going back to those letters in Revelation, obviously, Pergamum, Jesus told them to reject the false teaching of Balaam and the Nicolaitans. To Thyatira He said, “Stop tolerating evil.” And we have so much toleration going on today. To Sardis, “Wake up and repent.” In other words, don’t go to sleep. You know, we’ve talked about yawning versus yearning for the Lord’s return. And finally, Nathan, you go back over and over to Laodicea, who the Lord says, “Recognize your own spiritual poverty,” and essentially repent. Turn back and let me back into your heart because you’ve actually shut me out.

Nathan Jones: I think some, if not all of the greats of the faith, that we’re standing on their shoulders were all Philadelphian Christians. You know, the Lord had nothing negative to say about Philadelphia. They were passionate for the Lord; they wanted to serve Him. They were poor, they suffered for the Lord, but they were rich spiritually. And when I read through Foxe’s Book of the Martyrs and we know Christians who we stand on their shoulders of faith, they were Philadelphian Christians. So it’s almost like something to be a personal goal to be a Philadelphian Christian to keep you accountable.

Lee Brainard: Amen. Well, you know, I’ve often heard that you can tell a great deal about a man by the books he reads and the company that he keeps. And I find that my… Like I had a brother when I was in New Zealand ask me if I had a hobby. And I said I do. I collect amazing friends. I mean, when you think about it, I want to have people that I bring into my life that can sharpen me academically, morally, devotionally, biblically.

Tim Moore: Amen.

Lee Brainard: Jesus-focused people whose heart is Jesus.

Tim Moore: Well, obviously the writer of Hebrews in Chapter 11 recounts some of the greats of the faith as he goes down through a list of people from the Old Testament. But he says this in Chapter 12. As he’s building toward Jesus as the ultimate example, he says, “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us.” And when he says that I don’t believe he’s talking about people in Heaven looking down on us, no. He’s just saying all these greats of the faith who would testify if they could stand before us to their faith, which has been handed down.

He says, “Since we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.” I would dare say the distractions of this life. And sometimes, folks, I’m the greatest distractor in my own life. I can see a shiny object and be drawn to it. And so we have to avoid taking our eyes off Christ, just as Peter took his eyes off Christ walking on the water.

And he says, “Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne. For consider him who endured such hostility by sinners against Himself so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.”

So as we think about this great cloud of witnesses, who comes to your mind? Lee, you asked earlier: “Are you talking about people in my own life?” Who in your own lives do you really appreciate, you thank the Lord for pouring into you their faith and handing down that true faith in Jesus Christ?

Lee Brainard: Well, there’s a number of men that have put a lot into my life over the years, but one in particular stands out. I was a young believer, and we moved to Rhinelander, Wisconsin to knit in with a small church that met in the garage at the home of Glenn Conjurske. He was just an independent Baptist-type, Bible church-type pastor with a small church. He had his flaws, like a lot of men do, but he had the vastest, deepest knowledge of Church history of any man that I’ve ever met.

He was reading from like three o’clock in the morning till 10 o’clock at night, studying, writing, gathering stuff. He loved revival, he loved evangelism, he loved discipleship. And he was an amazing man, and he poured into me to give me an understanding that we have an obligation on every controversy to read both sides, otherwise you’re going to either be right by luck or wrong by bad luck, and that we want to actually be knowledgeable.

He helped me to understand things like the difference between the form of Christianity and the spirit of Christianity. Because you can be right in your spirit, your heart can be screwed on straight, but your mind can be thinking wrongly, and we need to make a difference. We can’t fault people merely for doctrinal problems.

Tim Moore: We follow with heart, mind, and soul.

Lee Brainard: Amen.

Nathan Jones: That’s why I love Hebrews 11:37. “They were stoned, they were sawn in two. They were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goat skins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented, of whom the world was not worthy.”

Lee Brainard: Amen.

Tim Moore: Amen.

Nathan Jones: You know, and those are just the Old Testament prophets. Think about today, the many people that we have encountered through our lives who’ve given up everything for Jesus Christ and so truly gained life eternal.

Tim Moore: Who comes to your mind, Nathan, as to pour into you as a living exemplar or somebody perhaps has gone to be with the Lord but that you really appreciate as being one of those cloud of witnesses?

Nathan Jones: Wow, I don’t think there’s one in particular, but it’s a culmination of first with my parents, of course, godly, loving parents who always made sure that we went to church and studied the Bible and all that. But I think it was a series of pastors who mentored me over the years.

You know, starting young, Dr. Don Hoke, and then later in the college years, Jim Brown and Joe Focht, and even into the later years through seminary and Bible study… You know, those are the greatest unsung heroes are your Bible study teachers who, every Sunday, you know, they’re there, they’re a small group leader teaching. And it’s just the culmination of people who give of their time, of their studies, of their attention, and it’s a culminating effect. And you have to look back over the years and say, “Oh, I’ve grown that much because of these people.”

Tim Moore: You know, like you, I would say my parents, Larry and Sammie Moore, who have poured into me. To this day if I have a prayer need or somebody who I need to have prayer placed upon, I’ll call my dad, and he’ll go back and pray for a couple hours for a specific person on his face. He prays for several hours every day. I think of Bobby Douglas, a pastor I had in Columbus, Mississippi, who still has been a mentor to this day. Dr. David Reagan, who obviously is instructive in both of our lives, drawing us to this message of proclaiming the Lord’s return.

I’ve been blessed to meet Andrew Brunson who was kept in prison in Turkey. Jacob DeShazer, who was a POW during World War II. He was actually on the original Doolittle Raid and was held in captivity by the Japanese for years in horrible circumstances. He came home, became a missionary, and went right back to Japan for the rest of his life. I think of Joni Eareckson Tada, who Nathan and I have said is the most joy-filled person, and you can’t help but be encouraged toward joy when you’re around Joni.

And we are sure that each of you can think of someone who has passed their faith on to you, which is why we encourage you to pass it on to someone else, whether it’s as a Prophecy Partner with Lamb & Lion Ministries, whether it’s supporting other gospel-focused ministries, or whether it’s sharing your faith with your family, friends, neighbors, even people you hardly know. Because time is of the essence, and the urgency of sharing the truth of Jesus Christ with people before it is too late for some of them is absolutely critical.

Well, fellas, obviously skeptics like to accuse us who eagerly await the Lord’s return of being too heavenly minded to be any earthly good. But we would counter that. We believe that when you really think Jesus is coming soon, it motivates you day by day.

Lee Brainard: Absolutely. And the fact of the matter is: I’ve been at this for 45 years. I have never met a believer who was so heavenly minded he was no earthly good. Now, I can’t say they don’t exist. I mean, maybe Bigfoot’s real. Maybe there really is a Loch Ness Monster, right? But the problem I see over and over again is people are so earthly-minded and worldly-minded, they are no heavenly good or at least not as heavenly-good as they could be.

Nathan Jones: When you’re anticipating the Lord’s return, you’re motivated to holy living. You’re motivated to evangelism in the time that is short. And you walk around with that blessed hope. You know, guys, I don’t know who in the world can’t have enough hope. And so when Christians are sitting there saying: “Ah, you escapists, you know, you believe in the Rapture, that’s nonsense.” They’re trying to steal our Blessed Hope. Don’t let them steal that hope.

Tim Moore: Don’t let Satan steal that hope. Well, obviously, we believe that following the promises of God and anticipating their fulfillment actually motivates us toward urgent evangelism, toward holy living, and toward keeping our eyes on Jesus Christ. And yet how do you guys try with intentionality to pour into yet another generation?

If the Lord tarries, because we’ve talked in the last three weeks about some who anticipated His coming and they’ve gone to be home with the Lord. He may tarry beyond our lifetimes. How do we ensure that our faith is passed on so that when the Son of Man comes, He does find faith on the earth?

Lee Brainard: Well, I love to put time into people that connect with me that are in, whether they’re pastors or Bible school teachers or whether they’re Bible study leaders. They have some ministry where they’re influencing people. They want help from me, encouragement or a word. I love to pour into them because they’re pouring into other people. And I also like to pour into young people. If they connect with me and they’re hungry, they got my attention.

Nathan Jones: A lot of people think evangelism is putting on a sandwich board and walking up and down the streets or knocking on doors. Others, like you just said, friendship evangelism. But Tim and I are media evangelists. We like to go and create materials that people can come to so they can learn about the Lord Jesus Christ. And a lot of what we do isn’t just to encourage the Church now, but to leave behind during the Tribulation to hopefully lead many, many people to Christ at that time as well. And you do the same thing with Soothkeep.

Tim Moore: Paul talks about how we should be making the Jewish people jealous of our faith, and I dare say, that’s a holy jealousy because they say, “Who is it that you are following?” We’re following the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the Messiah who was promised to all the prophets. And so by making them jealous, they are drawn.

I’ve often said upon reading Psalm 73: if I were to pass… My grandchildren call me Saba. Will they reflect, “Oh, Saba was always aggravated about politics. He was so frustrated with the condition of the world”? Or will they say, “Saba was so full of joy and hope, he was always talking about Jesus Christ”? And so that’s my ongoing challenge. Am I overflowing with joy and with anticipation to where when I bump into somebody, what sloshes out is not frustration or aggravation, but the joy of the Lord and the hope that is within me that I can always give an explanation for?

Well, fellas, obviously, what would you say to a Christian who’s watching today and wants to know how they can serve the Lord boldly in just a word or two?

Lee Brainard: Just embrace what you know to be true and to live it.

Tim Moore: Live it.

Lee Brainard: Just trust the Lord for it.

Tim Moore: Amen. Well, Lee, I want to thank you for joining us, not just today, but for the last two weeks. It’s been a great blessing to us here at Lamb & Lion Ministries. We pray it’s been a great blessing to you. And I do pray the Lord will continue to bless your ministry at Soothkeep. We know you’re standing up a new ministry. You’ve moved to Oklahoma. And so you and Nita are impacting many lives. You’ve certainly impacted ours. Lord’s blessings stay on you, my friend.

Lee Brainard: Thank you very much.

Tim Moore: Yes, sir.

Closing

Tim Moore: Well, we also hope that our conversations these past three weeks have been a great blessing to you. Sometimes we can become so caught up in our day-to-day lives that we fail to see the big picture, and it’s important and helpful to pause occasionally and recalibrate our attitude. The best way to do that is to seek a heavenly perspective or what I call a God’s-eye view on the world and our place on the timeline of human history.

Nathan Jones: All of us who follow Christ today owe a debt of gratitude to faithful Christian saints who came before. In a multitude of ways, both big and small, they passed down their faith to us, and they ensured that the torch was passed to a new generation.

Tim Moore: The preacher who wrote Ecclesiastes said: “There is nothing new under the sun.” And with regard to our faith, that has been true since Jesus came to offer a new covenant in His blood. We do not seek to find a new Gospel but are determined to stay true to the Gospel of Christ Paul preached.

Nathan Jones: And as Tim says, although we are blessed with greater and greater hindsight as Bible prophecies continue to be fulfilled, we follow in the footsteps of the original disciples as we gaze heavenward awaiting the return of Jesus Christ.

Tim Moore: In the end, even as we are grateful for all those who have come before and allow us to figuratively stand on their shoulders, we are eternally indebted to the Savior who carries us on His own shoulders like a shepherd carries a sheep.

Our faith, our salvation, our eternal destiny is not dependent on our faithfulness, as important as it is for us to strive to be faithful. We can rest in the knowledge that having trusted in Christ, all His promises of blessing, rescue, and eternal life are guaranteed by His unwavering faithfulness. And that, my friends, really is Good News. Godspeed!

End of Program