What is the Convergence and how does it point to the soon return of Jesus Christ? Find out with guest Brandon Holthaus along with hosts Tim Moore, Nathan Jones, and Dave Bowen on the television program, Christ in Prophecy!
Air Date: October 7, 2023
Tim Moore: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy! I’m Tim Moore the senior evangelist of Lamb & Lion Ministries, and I’m joined again today by Nathan Jones, our Internet Evangelist, and David Bowen, our Teaching Evangelist. You know, last week we started a conversation about the Great Reset with Brandon Holthaus, our special guest. Brandon, thank you for joining us for yet another week.
Brandon Holthaus: Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.
Tim Moore: Yeah, we just continued rolling.
Brandon Holthaus: That’s right.
Tim Moore: But today we want to move into the signs of the times that are converging all around us. So the Great Reset is one facet of the prophetic signs that we can see transpiring right before our eyes. But here at Lamb & Lion Ministries, we’ve come up with really six categories of signs to describe or at least begin to understand all the things that are happening. Nathan, remind us what those six categories are.
Nathan Jones:: Sure thing. Well, it starts with the signs of nature, which we could talk forever about. It moves on to the signs of society. Then the spiritual signs, both positive and negative. We have the sign of world politics, which the Great Reset just drops right in there. The signs of technology, which Dave and I are big fans of. And then, of course, the super sign, the sign of Israel. So, we could cover each of these and say at a few minutes at a time. But the big question and this is something we’ve been hearing over the last ten years is we’ve been seeing these signs in these different categories, but now all six categories are firing all at once. So the leadoff question then would be are you seeing in your ministry a convergence of all the signs pointing to the soon return of Jesus Christ?
Brandon Holthaus: Yeah, I think anyone that’s in tune with the prophetic scenario is saying the same thing. And that’s where I think the Holy Spirit is convicting all of us in the prophecy world that they’re converging, all the signs. Whether it’s Israel or whatever, the World Economic Forum, all of it is converging at the same time and coming to a head. And we know where that head goes to the Tribulation. We have never seen something like this. There’s been, you know, throughout church history parts well you had this, you had that, but you didn’t have all the parts. And now every piece of the pie is activated. And I think that’s a major sign to all of us in the prophecy world something’s going on.
Tim Moore: Well, I think sometimes people fall into the trap of thinking, just as in the days when Peter was talking about scoffers will come with their scoffing and their mocking, and people say, oh, come on, it’s always been this way.
Brandon Holthaus: Yeah.
Tim Moore: Well, there have always been indications of evil and a trend toward wickedness, but not like we’ve seen manifest in recent years. Just think, 20 years ago, did any of us even think that there would be the transgenderism of today. That wasn’t on the radar. So there’s been a complete giving over to debauchery, not just tolerating certain lifestyles, but now celebrating and demanding that you celebrate as well. That has never been seen in living memory. And so we’ve returned to the paganism of the past. And, yes, these signs are all multiplying, and yet people can get blasé, in other words, think ah it’s always been this way. No, it hasn’t.
David Bowen: What’s interesting, too, on my computer, I keep a Webster’s dictionary from 1950 and I keep one from 1910. And I looked up the word tolerance and you see how the dictionary has even changed what it means. Tolerance used to be we could disagree and be fine.
Nathan Jones:: Well, the meaning of woman is no longer the same as it was just a few months ago.
David Bowen: Yeah, marriage. We’re seeing how words, even the meaning of words have changed and our culture changes with it.
Nathan Jones:: Well Brandon let’s tackle the first one, and that’s the sign of nature. People are looking around the world. They’re seeing all these crazy weather patterns happening more frequently and more intensely, just as Jesus said in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. And they’re then saying, well, it’s not God calling us to repentance, they’re reinterpreting it as climate change, global warming or something like that. Do you believe that this is becoming a Babylon like religion, this worship of the creation, rather than the creator as 2 Peter 3, which you just quoted says?
Brandon Holthaus: Absolutely, because that’s what happens, and Romans 1 talks about that. But ancient paganism was a worship of creation, and that’s what we’re seeing. Well, we’ve got to save mother earth or whatever. And now instead of, like you just said, interpreting the, this is the word unprecedented, unprecedented weather patterns. And they’re saying, well, that’s because of our carbon emissions out of our SUVs. And it’s no, that is a biblical sign throughout the whole Bible that God is trying to warn people something’s coming. And He would do it through weather patterns many times, lack of rain or whatnot, storms, earthquakes, you name it. The earthquakes, if you look at the earthquakes, earthquakes are off the chart. Every Sunday I show a prophecy update on how many earthquakes over 5.0 happened this week. And it just keeps getting larger and larger, just like the Lord said.
David Bowen: That’s not counting the ones in the ocean. When there is an earthquake there we don’t know about that. Animals we talk about nature. How would you go about this? I know in Revelation, in the Tribulation, half the population won’t survive that seven years, there is going to be mass death. We’re seeing birds fall out of the sky. We’re seeing thousands of fish come up on the shore dead. We are seeing cows fall over in the fields. The mass death of animals. Is that a preamble for what’s going to happen in Revelation to humans?
Brandon Holthaus: I think so. And that’s the graciousness of God to show humanity look, here’s a small microcosm of what it’s going to look like in the Tribulation. And I think that’s God’s grace saying wake up something is about to happen where most of the animals will be destroyed by the judgments of the Tribulation. So absolutely, it’s a sign.
Tim Moore: Wake up, that’s the Lord’s message to one of the churches in Revelation that they need to wake up. And certainly we should wake up today. I remember serving in the legislature and getting a magazine called Governing Magazine. And several years ago, their cover story was about how governments around the world are touting the need for resilience in the face of ever more frequent and damaging natural disasters. And I thought those editors had no idea that they were proclaiming the fulfillment of Bible prophecy in the natural realm. And yet we see it all the time. Let’s move to society. We could spend many hours and I’m sure our viewers are very familiar with all the changes. I’ve already mentioned who would have dreamed 20 years ago that transgenderism would be the thing that all these corporations would be embracing, even to their own demise, a woke ideology and a progressive, immoral mentality that would drive away their own customers. And yet here we are.
Brandon Holthaus: Yeah. And what we’re seeing from Bible prophecy is the formation of the whore of Babylon. And as we know that the book of Revelation talks about this three legged stool of Babylon, which being the headquarters of the Antichrist, but it includes an economic leg, it includes a political leg, and a religious leg. And what’s happening really what wokeism is, we know it’s Marxism, but in the bigger scheme of things, a religion, an ancient religion, is being perpetrated on humanity. And it’s straight from Babylon, the mother of harlots. And that’s why you see in America the attack on the Judeo-Christian ethic from the whore. And whether you use the term wokeism or progressivism, it is a different religion. It is a pagan religion.
Nathan Jones:: What’s interesting is how the first half of the Tribulation this mystery Babylon religion is Kumbaya, link hands Wokeism is the dominant religion. But then the Antichrist and the false prophet step in.
Brandon Holthaus: That’s right.
Nathan Jones:: Kill her.
Brandon Holthaus: Yes.
Nathan Jones:: And then set up open Satan worship. Now, what’s interesting we’re seeing more and more is Satan camps. We’re seeing Satan after school clubs. Satanism seems to be on the rise in the country. Do you think then, that our society is openly embracing Satan willingly or unconsciously?
Brandon Holthaus: Huh, I think it’s both. Because I think people do know that Satanism is attractive. And what they’re saying is, well, we don’t really believe in a person of Satan, it’s just a concept or a principle. And basically the principle is this: do what makes you feel good. That’s the tenant of Satanism. Now, think about this. Target just partnered with a Satanist to design their clothing for Pride Month, which included guillotines for those who like us, who are quote in quote homophobic and making all kinds of clothes for cross-dressing. That’s unprecedented. To watch Target partner with a Satanist and think that’s acceptable. So it’s something we have never seen. So then the unconscious part is, well, do whatever makes you feel good. And that’s basically how people are operating.
Tim Moore: I saw, I searched be careful when you do this for a demonstration of reveling in sin. And I was able to find a t-shirt that’s being sold, touted as made in the USA. We’ll actually put it on the screen. And it talks about giving oneself over to death, and to visions of death and destruction, and destroying the image of man as formed in the fashion of God. We’re obviously blending over into the spiritual signs, even as we talk about the society signs, because there’s so much intertwining. And yet that is the crux of why our society is falling into these pits of satanic worship and really of despair. The number of young people who have been given over to discouragement, depression and even despair, leading to suicide attempts among young girls is unprecedented, as you said, Brandon. And it has a spiritual component, but it’s being manifest in our very society.
David Bowen: And what’s interesting is we don’t even try to hide it. Years ago, you know, they would do something and be kind of sneaky, and then when you see it now it’s out in the open and everybody’s accepting it. You look at, you mentioned, you know, the European Union, when you go over there and you talk about Babylon. Their parliament building is built after the Tower of Babel.
Brandon Holthaus: I know, isn’t that crazy!
David Bowen: It’s designed after the Tower of Bable.
Nathan Jones:: The woman riding the beast is on statues all over the place.
Brandon Holthaus: Yeah, you’re right.
David Bowen: You look at you go, okay, we’re publicly making this and we’re doing this, and we all go oh, that’s okay.
Nathan Jones:: Okay, so now we’ve moved into category four world politics, we skipped we did spiritual.
Tim Moore: Before we move on, though, even the last episode, we discussed how the next shoe to drop will likely be pedophilia. And so a sign of society that that begets it from a spiritual emptiness. And so we’re pursuing child autonomy to the point that pedophilia will be the next thing that’s embraced.
Nathan Jones:: Well, there are positive spiritual signs, and so let’s go back to category three before we go to world politics. I know that’s where we love and I know that’s your wheelhouse. But there are positive spiritual signs in the Bible. Could you give us a little encouraging about what’s positively going on in the church today?
Brandon Holthaus: Well, what’s happening is the great separation is happening. And what I talk about it is revealing that God is doing about the church. He is now taking the veil off of the church, and we’re now realizing who is part of the Remnant church and who is not. And why is that important? It’s important for us to know if we’re going into battle I got to know who I can trust in the foxhole with me. And we’re going into a major battle. Obviously, the Lord still has us here. I’ve got to know who’s on my side. And what I’m starting to realize is I’m starting to know the names of the remnant by personal names because there’s not much of us left. There seems to be a group out there that gets it, understands it and is fighting. But the rest of Christendom, they’re checked out.
Tim Moore: I would submit that even in the days of Elijah, right after the major victory there at Mt. Carmel over the Prophets of Baal, he had a little time of great sadness and sorrow when he thought, I’m the only one left. He kind of had a pity party. And the Lord said, No, there are 7000. I think it’s instructive. Elijah did not know who those 7000 were, and so we will not always know. Yeah, I think there is a great separation, the Lord knows. And we just need to be encouraged that there are faithful Christians. Yes, there’s going to be a great winnowing even in this season. One of our speakers over at our conference said, you know, we could go to China, and the pastors there will tell you there are no liberal Christians here. Who would want to be a liberal Christian and put up with the persecution you have to endure? So the only people who are truly professing Christians, they are serious about their faith. This is true in many parts of the world. I think it’s going to grow increasingly true here. But let’s face it, when we have a conference, when you go to conferences, people come from a number of churches seeking to find fellowship with like minded believers.
Brandon Holthaus: Yes, right.
Tim Moore: And we can just know that the Lord has preserved for Himself a remnant.
Brandon Holthaus: Amen.
Nathan Jones:: Brandon you have a resource on your website.
Brandon Holthaus: I do.
Nathan Jones:: I think our people would love to know about because we get questions all the time. I live in this town in the middle of nowhere, do you know a church that is a Bible believing, Bible prophecy, loving church?
Brandon Holthaus: Yeah.
Nathan Jones:: Tell us about that resource.
Brandon Holthaus: Yeah, so what I did, because I wanted the remnant to connect, is we’ve created a church tracker for remnant churches that that have, you know, a healthy, well-balanced theology.
Nathan Jones:: And the address?
Brandon Holthaus: Yes. Go to RockHarborChurch.net on our website and go to resources, and there it is right there. And you can see a map of the United States. And we’ve identified remnant churches for people. We’ve actually called the pastors, we’ve talked to them, and make sure they’re pro-Israel, dispensational, the whole nine yards to see where they’re at. And we whittled it down to about 600. But what that allows people to do is find a safe church to go to. They might have to drive 2 or 3 hours, but it is a remnant church. And it’s been wonderful to connect remnant believers to these remnant pastors, just like this guy right here.
David Bowen: Yeah, I can give a personal testimony for that because I do pastor a church in Phoenix, Arizona, Standing Stones Community Church. And when people come to church, I like to greet them afterwards. And how did you hear about the church? And I can’t tell you almost every week I didn’t realize how important this this tool was. Almost every week someone comes in and it says, Well, I got it thru Rock Harbor Church and going there looking for a remnant church. And the people who have joined our church are solid. Bible believing, prophecy believers. And they do travel a distance and they are rock solid.
Brandon Holthaus: Amen.
Nathan Jones:: They are Rock Harbor solid.
Brandon Holthaus: Yeah, right.
Tim Moore: The very fact that this television show is being broadcast not only through network media and through cable television and satellite television, but also through the Internet, is yet another facet of how the Lord is blessing in this day and age, the ability to get this message out. You know, 200 years ago, it would have been unusual for any of us individually to be able to reach thousands upon thousands, if not millions of people potentially through a mechanism like the Internet. I know there’s many evil things on the Internet and through technology, but praise the Lord we’re leveraging it, using it for good.
Nathan Jones:: Let’s jump to sign number five and lets talks about some of the technologies today. And of course, these can’t live in their own categories, they all overlap, so tell us some of the categories of technology that Tim is telling us about that is helping us spread the Gospel, but it also is bringing in the Antichrist empire.
Brandon Holthaus: Yeah, well, you have the Internet obviously can be used for good or bad, but the Internet has been very successful in getting our message out. And I think this is what God is doing. He’s protecting that message because He wants that message to get out from you guys, from the from him and from myself and anyone else involved. So it’s being used. So, the platforms are being used. Okay. You have that aspect. The other aspect then on the negative side is the technology that they’re developing, the AI is eventually going to create a national identity or a global identity in order for surveillance and track people around the world. And so that’s a negative aspect. But of course, the Bible predicts that.
Interesting thing, too, about Revelation 13, about technology. We might have a glimpse of technology with the idol that the Antichrist sets up, because this thing has the ability to kill you if you do not bow a knee to it. And John uses an interesting word. He says, the way the Greek is formed, he says it looks like it’s alive, but he doesn’t use the Greek word zoe, which means biological life, he says it looks alive, but he’s basically saying it’s not. And maybe John is describing an AI robot technology.
Tim Moore: You know, during the month of June, even as we record this episode during the month of June 2023, a gathering of Protestant Christians in Germany sat at a worship service while an AI preacher actually presented the sermon, and other AI assistance came to have a role in the sermon. So it was on a screen and it was all computer generated and it delivered a sermon. And people said, you know, it’s actually it wasn’t bad. There was no heart in it. There was no life. It was very flat and monotone. Eventually they’ll get better and even producing what appears to be life. But they said, you know, it wasn’t too bad. And I’m sure the young people loved it. And I thought, this is awful. You went to a worship service to listen to a computer preach to you, and the sermon was completely made up through something like ChatGBT. I mean, it was it was all AI generated, and yet that’s what these people went and sat under.
Nathan Jones:: Unbelievable.
David Bowen: And technology’s moving so fast. I remember getting my master’s degree in seminary. We didn’t have the Internet.
Brandon Holthaus: Right.
David Bowen: It wasn’t that long ago.
Brandon Holthaus: Right.
Tim Moore: You had to go to a library?
Nathan Jones:: I used a typewriter in Bible College.
David Bowen: There’s was no Internet. You know, so quickly and how fast things are moving in technology, you can’t keep up with it.
Tim Moore: All right, so let’s get to the last sign, lest we do run out of time. And that being the signs of Israel. All of us have been to Israel, love to take people to Israel to see with their eyes what the Lord is doing in our own day and age. And let’s face it, Israel just celebrated its 75th anniversary as an independent modern state. Within my lifetime, at least, Israel regained its ancient capital of Jerusalem, the Old City. And so what are the signs of Israel that are just multiplying before our eyes?
Nathan Jones:: And why is it important? Why is it called the super sign?
Brandon Holthaus: Well, it’s the time clock, basically. Everything that you see set up for the Tribulation requires Israel to be a nation. It requires them to have control of the Old City. It requires them to have control of the mountains of Israel, especially for Ezekiel 38 & 39. So when you see them, they have control of their mountains, they have control of the Old City. Eventually they’re going to get control of the Temple Mount because we know a Tribulation Temple will be built. So when you see Israel set in place, that means that what is necessary for the Tribulation for Israel is ready to go down. So and then the interesting thing, if you watch Israeli politics, there’s a divide in Israel right now. The divide between the secular left and then the conservative, you know, more Hasidic Orthodox. Okay. But what’s happening is the formation of who will do the deal with the Antichrist is starting to emerge, even in the split in Israel. I mean they’re having civil war, so to speak, in Tel Aviv when they had these two groups fighting with each other. Daniel says the many will make a deal. Not all of Israel, but the many will make a deal with him. And I think politically what’s happening in Israel is that split is going to continue to grow and there emerges the side that will do the deal with the Antichrist.
David Bowen: I think it’s important to understand, because you’ve talked about, you know, when does this happen? And people have been saying, well, Christ is going to return, I’ve been hearing this for 50 years, you know. Is it going to happen? Well, what people don’t understand is that the Bible tells us that three things have to happen before Matthew 24 really comes to effect. Israel has to be a nation. Check, 1948. Jerusalem has to be the capital. Check 1967, basically. But the Jews had to be back. God calls the Jews back into the homeland. And this last decade there are more Jews now in Israel than out of Israel, the first time since A.D. 70. So really, when you talk about everything else coming together, this is the first generation where all three of those boxes of checked. Prior generations could not say that, weather it be technology or anything else. Israel was the key. And as long as the Jews were outside the land God is not going to do anything.
Brandon Holthaus: That’s right.
David Bowen: When He brings them back, He calls them back. And we’ve been there. And you talk to people, Why did you come back? I don’t know, I just felt like God was calling me here. That’s the third check box.
Tim Moore: And the reason that this could have happened at any point in the last 2,000 years is God’s timetable could have accelerated a 1,000 years ago, 1,500 years ago, He is not limited by what our perception is. We learned. Even as Mondo Gonzalez shared some of the writings of great theologians and Christian Zionist expectors of Israel’s reestablishment 150 years ago. And they said, Well, I don’t understand how this is going to come to pass. As I would put it, their image and mentality was, well, the Jews are very happy in places like Germany, and Poland, and Russia, but somehow the Lord is going to motivate the Jews to want to go back to their ancient homeland, because that’s what it says in Scripture. I don’t understand how that will happen, but I believe it. And that’s really the key, even as people open Revelation. Well, I don’t understand it. The key to understanding it is to believe it. If you believe it and you read, and heed as it says two different times, then you will begin to understand. But the key is, do you believe the Word of God? Do you believe that His promises are Yes and Amen, even if you can’t yet understand. We’re gaining understanding all the time, even more than our forebearers in faith were.
Brandon Holthaus: Interesting enough you said that I just had Olivier Melnick speak at my church, and he talks about Jewish anti-Semitism in America. Okay, what we have seen is the return to back to Zion that started in the late 1800s has been fueled by Antisemitism in Europe. And now we have almost half the Jewish population here in America. Well, if the Lord brought them out of Europe from because of Antisemitism, what should we expect here? Is it going to be the same thing? Well, according to the Anti-Defamation League and Olivier Melnick, Antisemitism in America has gone up 40%. So it’s making the Jews uncomfortable living here.
Tim Moore: And eventually will motivate them to go back to Israel.
Brandon Holthaus: Bingo.
Nathan Jones:: And that is the result of the Gog Magog War?
Brandon Holthaus: Yes.
Nathan Jones:: The world knows there is a God. All, not just some, all the Jews return to Israel. Do you see Brandon as we’re talking about convergence of science, means they are all coming together, that we are seeing the church kind of passing the torch to Israel. As Israel becomes more prominent eventually they will get the heart that we read in Ezekiel 38 & 39 for God, yet not His Son. It’s kind of an indicator that the Rapture has got to happen soon, right? Because the Lord is looking like He’s starting to move His presence from the church to Israel.
Brandon Holthaus: Interesting you say that because the conversion of Jewish believers in the last 20 years has been more than the last 2,000 years, and yet the Gentiles seem to not respond to the Gospel anymore, especially the younger generations. I mean, the younger generations they are down hovering around about 2% that claim to be Christian. It’s that bad. So I think you’re seeing the fullness of the Gentiles as Paul talked about coming to an end, and the program getting picked up, and we’re in this overlap period. That’s why we’re seeing so many messianic believers say Yeshua is Messiah.
Tim Moore: So part of the convergence, that’s an excellent point, part of the convergence is the shifting. You know, I talk about Ezekiel’s vision of the glory of the Lord, the Shekinah Glory leaving the temple. And we can see that almost fulfilled in the way that He left the Jewish people and only a very small fraction of them came to faith over the last 2,000 years. But Ezekiel also saw the Shekinah Glory of the Lord returning to the temple to reside there on Mount Zion. And so sure enough, there has been a great upsurge of Jewish faith and Messianic believers. Praise the Lord.
And part of our hope is that even Jews watching today will realize we serve and worship a Jewish Messiah, Yeshua Jesus Christ. So we all like to think there’ll be a great awakening in the West. I think most of us would agree that is unlikely given the trajectory and trends in our own society. But yet the Spirit of God is at work and until Jesus Christ returns, there will be people who respond in faith to the message of the Gospel.
Brandon Holthaus: Amen. And I think that’s our job until we’re raptured home to get the Gospel out, shine a light on the evil, and disciple, and do what our Father told us to do, do His business and occupy until He comes.
Tim Moore: Amen. And folks, you know what? That’s not just our job at this table. That’s really your job. The Great Commission is to go and make disciples to tell people about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, giving your own personal testimony, not just ours. And so we would encourage you to be a part of this great mission, which is to tell people about Jesus Christ until He returns. We look forward to that glorious day. But until He does, even as we say Maranatha, we say, come and be a part of the great Church of Jesus Christ.
End of Program