The Pre-Trib Rapture Under Attack

Is the Pre-Trib Rapture view a reality or a myth? Find out with guest Dr. Gary Frazier on the show Christ in Prophecy.

Air Date: August 11, 2019.

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Dr. Reagan: Is the concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture a genuine biblical hope, or is it wishful fantasy? Some say there is not one verse in the Bible that sustains it. Others claim that the concept is too new to be true. What about it? Is it a myth or a reality? Stay tuned.

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Part 1

Dr. Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus our Blessed Hope and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. My colleague Nathan Jones and I are delighted to have once again this week a very special guest and friend Gary Frazier.

Gary Frazier: Nathan.

Dr. Reagan: Gary, Glad to have you.

Gary Frazier: Hi Dave, good to see you.

Dr. Reagan: Gary is the head of a ministry called World Wide Missions which is located in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Gary, I just want to jump right into our topic this week and it has to do with a book you’ve written called, It Could Happen Tomorrow. First of all what does that talk about? What is it?

Gary Frazier: Well, first of all the world stage God is in the process right now of setting the world stage for His soon return. And the prophecies contained in the Word of God that are screaming that the hour is late and soon Jesus is going to come. Actually those things begin with the departure of the Bride, in this event that you referred to a moment ago as the Rapture of the Church. So the “it” could happen, first it starts with the Rapture and then we see the following events.

Dr. Reagan: Ok, let’s just pause right there. Let’s assume there are some people watching because I know there are who don’t even have any idea what you mean by the word Rapture. So what are we talking about when we talk about Rapture?

Gary Frazier: Well I like to use the phrase, Dr. Reagan, that it’s the coming of Christ for the Saints. And I think people who are familiar with the Word of God can remember that last night of Jesus’ life on the earth prior to the cross it is recorded there in John chapter 14 Jesus says, “Let not your heart’s be troubled, you believe in God believe also in me, for in my Father’s house there are many mansions if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go to prepare a place for you I will come again and receive unto myself that where I am there you may be also.” That is the blessed hope that Christ who was going to die, be buried, be raised again was going to ascend into Heaven was one day going to call His Bride up to meet Him in the air and take us to the Father’s house.

Dr. Reagan: Ok, but now are you talking about the Second Coming, or are you talking about an event separate and apart from the Second Coming?

Gary Frazier: Absolutely not, no. In fact there is a lot of confusion in the minds of a lot of folks who just have a vague general awareness of Scripture. Plus they listen to a preacher sometimes who doesn’t really–He talks about the coming of Jesus but doesn’t clarify what he is talking about.

Dr. Reagan: Yes.

Gary Frazier: This book clearly teaches that there are going to be two comings of Christ yet to take place. There is going to be one when Jesus makes good on His promise to get His Bride to take her to the Father’s house.

Dr. Reagan: Ok. Ok.

Gary Frazier: That then will be the pre-cursor, or prelude if you please to the beginning of the most seven horrific years in the world called the Tribulation period. That will then follow when this time Jesus comes again, not to claim His Bride but rather to come back with His Bride; and that is the Second Coming. The Second Coming of Jesus is when He physically, visibly returns so every eye, Revelation 1:7 will see Him. His foot will touch the Mt. of Olives. He is going to it is the literally physical return of Christ.

Dr. Reagan: Ok.

Nathan Jones: Gary I like–

Gary Frazier: Uniquely different from the coming of Christ for the Saints.

Nathan Jones: And I think you are referring particularly to 1 Thessalonians 4:17, right?

Gary Frazier: Right

Nathan Jones: “After that we who are still alive and left will be caught up,” raptured, “together with Him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” Right?

Gary Frazier: Absolutely.

Nathan Jones: So the Rapture word is not in there but if you go back to the Greek which is “harpazo” and Latin which is the “rapio” transliterate it, rapture, caught up. It is just easier to say rapture then caught up all the time.

Gary Frazier: It is. And by the way Nathan, you know this, and you do as well Dr. Reagan.

Nathan Jones: Yeah.

Gary Frazier: There are seven different raptures in the Bible. So this is not some kind of a new concept, or new idea.

Nathan Jones: No. What are some of them?

Gary Frazier: Well we obviously have of course Elijah is called up in a whirlwind.

Dr. Reagan: That’s right.

Nathan Jones: Raptured, caught up.

Gary Frazier: Absolutely.

Dr. Reagan: Enoch before him.

Gary Frazier: Enoch he walked with God and was not because God took him. Revelation 11 two witnesses are raptured up. So there are seven different unique raptures in the Scripture where these people are translated, transported if you please, emerged into the presence of God. But what is so incredible about this thing is think about this for a moment if I were the Devil, ok, then my ploy would be: What would be the one biblical truth apart from salvation by grace through faith because that has been the first battle ground, because Satan realized what the problem there was so he instituted works and gave us religion instead of relationship. But having said that the second most attacked area of Scripture of course is if I can get people confused about the coming of Jesus then I can do something that is vital and that is I can rob the sense of urgency from their life.

Dr. Reagan: Yes.

Nathan Jones: And their hope.

Gary Frazier: I can create confusion. I can make them think that life would just kind of go on forever, and at some point in time I will die.

Dr. Reagan: Get apathetic about the Lord’s return.

Gary Frazier: You just get totally indifferent and disconnected from the reality that Christ could come at any moment. And I want to tell you that through the years as a former pastor, and having been on the road I preach in churches almost every week around the country and have now for 30 years. I will tell you that Satan has done an incredible job of stealing urgency.

Nathan Jones: Oh, certainly.

Gary Frazier: Robing the body of Christ from the sense of urgency because he’s confused this issue.

Dr. Reagan: Yes.

Gary Frazier: And that is why I am thrilled that you taking on, and on your program you frequently talk about this because it is something that the body of Christ needs to be crystal clear on.

Dr. Reagan: Ok, so now let me just summarize for a moment what you said here. You are saying that the return of the Lord is going to be in two stages. First it is going to be an appearing in the heaven for His Church, for His Bride, the Bridegroom coming for the Bride and that is in the Thessalonian letter.

Gary Frazier: 1 Thessalonians 4.

Dr. Reagan: And then the other is in Revelation 19 and that is the Second Coming some seven years later at the end of the Tribulation. Ok, now we come to, and I don’t think anyone could, I don’t know how anyone could argue that those are not two separate events. They just don’t have anything in common. I mean in the first one Jesus doesn’t come to earth. In the Second Coming He comes to earth. First one He comes for His Bride, He returns with His Bride at the end. And we could go on and on. But now we come to the crucial issue and that is the timing of the Rapture. You take the position that the Rapture is going to occur before the Tribulation begins. There are others who say, “No, it is going to be in the Tribulation, middle or near the end, or that it’s going to be all just one event at the end.”

Gary Frazier: Right.

Dr. Reagan: Why do you take the position of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

Gary Frazier: Great question, but, before I answer that let me also say that if our viewers will go to my website at they can get a listing whereby we have them side-by-side.

Dr. Reagan: Ok.

Gary Frazier: Rapture passages of Scripture, versus Second Coming passages. We also have the fifteen differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming and that would be very helpful for people.

Nathan Jones: Oh, extremely.

Gary Frazier: Side-by-side so they can see that.

Dr. Reagan: Yes. Again what is your website?

Gary Frazier: It is

Dr. Reagan: Ok, and they can download that free of charge?

Gary Frazier: Absolutely free.

Dr. Reagan: Ok.

Gary Frazier: And they can have that and it will help them. Now having said that why is it that there is this argument that the Church is going to go through the Tribulation? And that’s kind of–

Nathan Jones: Because some people are really looking forward to that.

Gary Frazier: Oh, they seem to be. Yeah they have this suffering mentality. But let me explain.

Nathan Jones: Yeah, die for Christ get my head chopped off.

Gary Frazier: Well let me tell you that sounds good until that comes to your house.

Dr. Reagan: And they call us escapists.

Gary Frazier: Yeah, exactly.

Nathan Jones: I just tell them go to Iran on the corner and start preaching and you can be martyred.

Gary Frazier: And here is what is so incredible this is a very simple solution.

Nathan Jones: Yes.

Gary Frazier: To what it seems to be a complex question. So here is how I deal with this and this is why I believe this. As a student of Scripture I’ve done my homework number 1. Number 2 I don’t have an axe to grind with anybody if God wants us to go through the Tribulation we will go through the Tribulation but, that is not what the Bible teaches. And here is the way I know that. Jesus in His most ambiguous, unambiguous statement found in Matthew 24:36 which is His most comprehensive teaching in Matthew 24 concerning end time events. He says, “No man knows the day nor the hour of the coming of Christ.” So I think we would all agree no one knows.

Nathan Jones: Nobody.

Gary Frazier: Not the angels in Heaven. Even Jesus, limited Him, He choose to limit Himself with regard to that particular information. Nobody knows. Harold Camping didn’t know. William Miller in 1844 didn’t know. John Hagee doesn’t know. Jonathan Cahn doesn’t know. Nobody knows. So let’s be clear about that. Nobody knows. Now having said that we know this that in the book of Daniel, in Daniel chapter 9 we know that there is going to be a signing of a peace covenant and that covenant will begin, the final 2,520 days, 7 biblical years on the Jewish calendar of 360 days in the year that will be the Tribulation period. Ok, now nobody really wants to argue, nobody really argues that point.

Nathan Jones: No, that’s–

Gary Frazier: You read about it in Revelation 6-19. The only people who argue that point are the ones who refuse to accept the fact that Daniel wrote you know 2,500 years ago, they try to bring that into the First Century when we know that is totally wrong. Now having said that the Tribulation is that seven year period. Now if you are a mid-Trib person and you think that the Church is going to go through the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation then just listen to this. What Jesus said in Matthew 24:42, Matthew 25:11, Matthew 25:13 was “watch”. Watch what? Watch for His coming. Can I tell you that the only people who are watching for the coming of Jesus are the Pre-Trib Rapture people?

Dr. Reagan: That’s right.

Gary Frazier: Everybody else is looking for the start of the Tribulation, they are looking for the Antichrist.

Nathan Jones: They are terrified of the Mark of the Beast.

Gary Frazier: They are doing exactly what Jesus said don’t do. Don’t get, don’t get your focus off on these other things. Watch for me I am the key to this. So here is my point. If you are a Mid-Trib guy and you are here and you are alive and you see the peace covenant signed all you have to do is count 1,260 days and you know the day of the coming of Jesus. You say, “Well yeah, but it says the day nor the hour.” It does. It says no man knows the date nor the hour. You would know that.

Dr. Reagan: That’s right.

Nathan Jones: Exact day and hour.

Gary Frazier: But if you are a Post-Trib guy.

Dr. Reagan: You’d know it also.

Gary Frazier: Or you are a Pre-Wrath guys.

Dr. Reagan: Just count the day.

Gary Frazier: Or you are whatever, count the days. Again why is it that this becomes complicated? Number one because pastors have been taught– Listen I’m going to tell you what the person in the pew who just takes their Bible and they read this book they’re not confused. They can see the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. They can see that it is totally, that it cannot be the same event, it is impossible. They also can see that one of those has to do with Christ coming for His Bride, the saved. Jesus said He gave His, He said He birthed the Church, He gave Himself for the Church. He is coming for the Bride, for the Church. That is a total separate thing then when He comes in judgment upon a Christ rejecting, Jew hating world. But the timing of the Rapture and I tell people this all the time, this is really you are listening to the wrong people. You are listening to Doug Batchelor. You are listening to Irvin Baxter. You are listening to guys who are thoroughly confused.

Nathan Jones: Oh, yes.

Gary Frazier: I will tell you they may be nice guys. I mean I’m sure they are I am not trying to be unkind of critical. My wife tells me to not use names, but I can’t help it. Because the fact is seeds of confusion are being sown in places where it is not necessary.

Dr. Reagan: Ok, well I tell you, you know if you have a Pre-Trib Rapture concept you live looking for Jesus. Any other you are living looking for the Antichrist.

Part 2

Nathan Jones: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy with our interview of Dr. Gary Frazier, the author of It Could Happen Tomorrow. Now what we’re discussing is arguments against the Pre-Trib Rapture. Gary, I want to ask the first question and I hear this all the time especially from pastors who don’t study Bible prophecy is that the Pre-Trib Rapture view is just too new a view to be biblical. What is your response?

Gary Frazier: Well as soon as I get over my laughter about that.

Nathan Jones: You got to laugh.

Gary Frazier: I will simply comment and say that you know that argument simply is totally unfounded and I want to tell you why.

Nathan Jones: Ok. Why do they call it new, first? How new are we talking about?

Gary Frazier: First of all when they use that term typically they are talking about when J. N. Darby around 1826-1827 or so in that time frame began to discover this and began to teach this. But let me quickly say that here is the fallacy of that very idea. Number one we know as students of the Word of God and world history that around 400 or so AD that the world began to, or actually descended into what we now know as the Dark Ages.

Dr. Reagan: That’s right.

Gary Frazier: For over a 1,000 years most people couldn’t read, number one there was great illiteracy. Number two the Bibles that existed were chained to the pulpits of the Catholic Churches and so forth, the common man did not have access to Scripture. As a result of that there were great biblical truths that were lost for a 1,000 years.

Dr. Reagan: Absolutely.

Gary Frazier: So that brings us fast-forward to the time when a German monk by the name of Martin Luther he is sitting there and he is reading the Bible and all of a sudden he gets fixated on a verse, “The just shall live by faith.” And all of the sudden the light went on in his mind and his heart, and it revolutionized his opinion to the point that he then went to the church in Wittenberg, Germany and nailed “99 Thesis” or “Articles for Debate” on the wall of the door, rather of the Church and challenged the Catholic Church to debate these biblical theological issues. Now here is my question and my point. Was that passage always in the Bible? The answer is yes.

Dr. Reagan: But, it was too new to be true.

Gary Frazier: But, yes, absolutely and here is the thing my point is that in a 1,000 years many great biblical doctrines and teachings became, got lost to the common man.

Nathan Jones: Oh, yeah.

Gary Frazier: So, when people come up and say well the Rapture is too new. No, no it’s not new it was newly rediscovered, or newly discovered as we began to come out of the Dark Ages into the Protestant Reformation.

Dr. Reagan: And people got hold of Bibles and they could study them.

Gary Frazier: And Gutenberg printed the Bible.

Nathan Jones: And they could read them in their own language.

Gary Frazier: And the Word of God began to be disseminated again across the world. People began to discover these great truths. And that is exactly what happened with this incredible teaching that Jesus taught, the early Apostles believed it and proclaimed it. The ancient prophets predicted it and prophesied it. And we just rediscovered it in 1826-1827.

Dr. Reagan: You know we really don’t know how many–

Gary Frazier: But actually it is even before that.

Nathan Jones: Oh, yeah.

Gary Frazier: Long before that.

Nathan Jones: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Reagan: We really don’t know how many people throughout that period of time in the Middle Ages and all may of come up with the idea, because if you spoke out about something that the Catholica Church didn’t accept you were burned at the stake.

Gary Frazier: That’s right. You were a heretic.

Dr. Reagan: And your writings were burned at the stake.

Gary Frazier: That’s right.

Dr. Reagan: Now we are beginning to go back and discover a lot of people who had a concept of the Rapture different from the Second Coming. In fact you wrote an article about that didn’t you, Nathan?

Nathan Jones: Well yeah, you can go back to Brother Dolcino and some of the writings of the Shepherd of Hermas. You can also then go into the 1600 and 1700 the Puritan writings.

Dr. Reagan: Oh, yeah.

Nathan Jones: And although they were all over the place they clearly saw a difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming. They understood a dispensational view of the Bible, versus a covenant view.

Dr. Reagan: And some of those that we consider to be Mid-Trib Raptures, today they really considered Pre-Trib because they only considered the last 3 1/2 years to be the Tribulation.

Gary Frazier: The great “megas”.

Nathan Jones: Well what about Darby?

Dr. Reagan: And Darby really just pulled all this together.

Nathan Jones: Yeah. And what about Margaret MacDonald I hear all the time this teenage girl Margaret she had a vision. Is there anything to it?

Gary Frazier: Well in 1830 Margaret MacDonald supposedly had this vision of hers in 1830, absolutely it wasn’t even a Rapture vision. This is something that it has been so skewed.

Nathan Jones: Yeah, they attribute it to the Rapture.

Gary Frazier: Oh, I know.

Dr. Reagan: I want to tell you a funny story about that.

Gary Frazier: Ok.

Dr. Reagan: I had been teaching the Pre-Trib Rapture for ten years when some guy walked up to me and said, “Do you realize that you are teaching something that came from a demon possessed 15 year old girl?” I said, “Well I had no idea.” So I had no idea what he was talking about. I go out and I find this book by Dave McPherson which he has published six times under six different titles it’s the same book. So I read it and he says, “The whole concept came from a 15 year old hyper-charismatic, demon-possessed girl in the 1830’s. And so I read the whole book and then he says, now her vision is in the appendix. I turn to the appendix I read it. I read it. I must have read it 15 times I could never find a Pre-Trib Rapture in there.

Gary Frazier: That’s because there’s not one.

Dr. Reagan: I know.

Gary Frazier: I mean when I say not one what I mean is that was not her vision. But think about this they always talk about J. N. Darby 1826 when he was injured and laid up and so forth. They very rarely ever mention that in 1742 Morgan Edwards.

Dr. Reagan: Yes.

Gary Frazier: Who founded Brown–became President rather of Brown University wrote about a Pre-Trib Rapture as well.

Dr. Reagan: And I mean the real Pre-Trib Rapture.

Gary Frazier: The real Pre-Trib. And so here is my position on this: When I hear people who want to argue about the Pre-Trib position my response to this is listen, let me explain something God always says what He means, and mean what He says. He has one clear teaching on everything, there is one clear doctrine of salvation, there is one clear understanding of biblical prophecy in its broader sense. On the Rapture of the Church it is the only position that makes sense. And so, if you want to believe something else, I’m not the Holy Spirit I am not going to argue with you. But I will tell you this God only has one position on everything.

Nathan Jones: That’s a good point.

Gary Frazier: So when you say are you Mid-Trib, Pre-, Post-, or Preterism all those position cannot be right.

Dr. Reagan: No.

Gary Frazier: Ok, if they are God is confused. And the Bible tells us that God is not the author of confusion. So then we ask the question: Well then who is? We know who is: Satan. Satan is the author of confusion. He is the one. So why would he want to attack these positions? And by the way which position does he attack primarily?

Nathan Jones: The Pre-Tribulation.

Gary Frazier: The Pre-Tribulation. Why? Because again it goes to that urgency issues. If I can steal it, I’ve got it.

Dr. Reagan: You know another point that should be made is that Daniel for example said, “Lord I don’t understand all these prophecies you are giving me.” The Lord said, “They will not be understood until the time comes for them to be understood.” We are understanding prophecies today that have never been understood before because either historical events like the re-establishment of Israel, or technological developments.

Gary Frazier: Totally. And Dave I would add this you know we don’t believe in progressive revelation we think that God has said everything that He wants to say to us in these 66 books. But we do believe in progressive illumination.

Dr. Reagan: Oh, yeah.

Gary Frazier: And that is what Daniel is all about. When he is told in Daniel chapter 12, “Seal up the words of this scroll until the time of the end. And many shall go to and fro in their knowledge.” And I would use that Hebrew word, “daath” there can also be translated as understanding will be increased. And today as we look back on so much history and events we have the capability now of understanding things that previous generations could never understand. I will give you one illustration, when your great-grandparents sat in their room reading Revelation chapter 13 verse 16-18 about a mark or a number that everyone had to take. Can you imagine there was no television? They were listening on a radio if they had that. They were still going to the toilet outside. And then all of a sudden fast-forward we have this technological explosion that took place that has allowed us to hold in our hand, in a little phone more power, more computing power that used to exist in 6, 12, 24, block buildings, and so forth.

Nathan Jones: More than the space when they went up to the moon in the Apollo series.

Gary Frazier: So no wonder today we have the ability to understand and comprehend things that previous generations could never.

Nathan Jones: Yeah.

Dr. Reagan: I think back in 1907 I believe it was when Scofield was putting out his Bible with notes, from a Pre-Trib viewpoint. And when he got to Ezekiel 38 & 39 he talked about this being a future invasion of Israel by Russia and certain allies. And people said that was just insane. And if you stop and think about it at that time Russia was a Christian Orthodox nation, and Israel did not exist. How is a Christian orthodox nation going to invade a nation that doesn’t even exist? And his response to it was, “I don’t know. I cannot explain it but the Bible says it, therefore I believe it. In the end times Russia will come down against Israel.” And today we–

Gary Frazier: And they were under the Tsars at that point and time.

Dr. Reagan: Yeah.

Nathan Jones: What would you say Gary then is the strongest argument that supports the Pre-Trib Rapture view?

Gary Frazier: Well first of all I want to tell you that to me it is very simplistic and that is this, again, I go back to Matthew 24. I don’t want to get, I am not going to get in the weeds on these issues with people. I have people come to me and they want to argue. I am not going to argue about this at all. What I am simply say is this as far as I am concerned Jesus gave a command, Matthew 24, watch for my coming. Again Matthew 25:11, Matthew 25:13 these are about the parables of the wise and unwise virgins. Some were watching and some were not. Some were prepared and some were not. Bottom line is this: my responsibility is to get out of bed every day and realize that Christ might come today. And so I am not watching for the Antichrist. I’m not looking for as my friend Ed Hindson says, “The undertaker.” I am looking for the uppertaker. And I’m not wasting my time trying to guess the time because nobody knows the time, and Jesus could come at any time, so I am just going to be ready all the time.

Nathan Jones: Amen. Amen.

Gary Frazier: And the main reason for that is and here’s what so one of the things that is so often overlooked, the Bible teaches that our lives are but a vapor; here one moment gone the next. The truth is not a single one of us knows whether or not we will see the sun go down today let alone the sun come up tomorrow. Therefore as a result of that our responsibility is to live every day in the light of the fact that it may be our last day. And so to want to argue over a Pre-Trib, or Mid Trib, or Post-Trib Rapture really in many ways is a very foolish argument because the truth is we don’t even know if we are going to be here for that event. It could happen today, but so could our death because again our lives are but a vapor. Hebrew 9:27, “It is appointed to man once to die.” So we don’t know. So I don’t want to argue about this. What I am going to say is that I am going to get out of bed every day and I am going to choose to walk with Christ today. I want to have a passion about this because when I believe that Christ may come today I want to be a man of prayer. I want to be a man of personal holiness, and godliness. And I want to share my faith actively because I will tell you that Jesus may come today. And if He does come there are people around me who may die. So I want to make sure that they have the opportunity, and they hear the Gospel. That is the motivation we ought to have instead of trying to have what I consider to be time consuming arguments.

Nathan Jones: Amen. Amen.

Gary Frazier: But that said, I’m going to defend the fact that the Word of God teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture. We have not been appointed unto wrath in 1 Thessalonians 5:17. There is a clear coming of Christ for His Bride. We’ve not–He’s not going to beat us up and put us through the Tribulation. When I understand from reading the Word of God that the Tribulation is about two things: one it is about God finishing His business with unbelieving Israel.

Dr. Reagan: Yes.

Gary Frazier: And secondly it is about God dealing with the Gentile nations with regard to their refusal to accept Christ number one, and how they treat the Jewish people from Joel chapter 2. I don’t find the Church in that mix. I don’t find the Church anywhere in the mix after Revelation chapter 4 verse 1 when John is told, “To come up here and I will show you the things that must take place here after.” Fifteen times the Church appears in chapters 2 and 3 of the Revelation. It does not appear again until the 22nd chapter of the Revelation. It makes no real sense with sound, literal, biblical exegesis. I don’t know how anyone can read this book and not get this. This is not complicated. God is not trying to be confusing. And clearly we have passages like 1 Corinthians 15 verse 51 and following, Paul talks about the sudden change that takes place at the coming of Christ. Paul writes again to the Thessalonians believers, and again it is clear that Christ is going to call us up to meet Him in the air and then take us to the Father’s house. So, a lot of this confusion is manmade but I will tell you it is satanically driven.

Nathan Jones: I think so.

Gary Frazier: The originator of it is Satan.

Dr. Reagan: Nathan, how about you? What do you think is the most convincing argument in behalf of a Pre-Tribulational Rapture?

Nathan Jones: There are so many. Let’s see which ones do you pick? I think that Gary you touched on little bit about if the Church is called the Bride of Christ. Then why would God let the Bride of Christ be persecuted by the Antichrist, beheaded, tortured and suffer under God’s wrath. Now we are not talking about the wrath of man. We live today ISIS destroying Christians.

Gary Frazier: Yeah, we have persecution.

Nathan Jones: There is persecution no doubt. There is suffering no doubt. But that Jesus Christ would beat up His Bride and then Rapture her at the end of the Tribulation and have a wedding feast. We are all bloody and torn, it just doesn’t make any sense.

Gary Frazier: It doesn’t. And I’ll tell you what you just touched on is so important also and that is the fact that when you look at the Church as the Body of Christ as a whole the fact is, is that the Tribulation, we have no function, no role, no purpose in that.

Nathan Jones: No, they say the Church needs to be there.

Gary Frazier: Well, people think well the Church needs to go through persecution.

Nathan Jones: Yeah.

Gary Frazier: The Church has gone through persecution.

Nathan Jones: Oh, definitely.

Gary Frazier: And it will continue.

Nathan Jones: Definitely.

Gary Frazier: Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation. We have. But here’s the difference that tribulation comes from Satan. That tribulation comes from the unbelieving sinful nature of people. But never are we the object of the wrath of God.

Part 3

Dr. Reagan: Welcome back to Christ in Prophecy and our discussion with Dr. Gary Frazier.

Nathan Jones: Dr. Frazier it has been a blessing. You are a wealth of information.

Gary Frazier: Thank you. Thank you, Nathan.

Nathan Jones: Can you tell folks how they can tap into that wealth of information on your website and get this book It Could Happen Tomorrow.

Gary Frazier: Absolutely. You can go to, or to, either one of those will get you this book, other information that is free, we have a lot of free PowerPoints and various other kinds of ministry stuff.

Dr. Reagan: Great. How about telling them how to get in touch with our ministry?

Nathan Jones: They can check out Lamb & Lion Ministries by going to or

Dr. Reagan: And folks, it is a very interactive website because Nathan is on there eight hours a day. Sometimes he is debating with Mormons, or debating with Hindus or Muslims or whatever. But, he is also available to respond to your questions, and I hope you will think up a very difficult one for him and send it in. Until next week this is Dave Reagan speaking for Lamb & Lion Ministries saying, “Look up, be watchful for our redemption is drawing near.”

End of Program

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