Does DNA prove you were made by an intelligent designer? Find out with Dr. Jobe Martin on the show Christ in Prophecy.
Last aired on September 18, 2011.
To order, call 1-972-736-3567 (M-F, 8 a.m.-5 p.m. CST), or select a resource below to order online.
Dr. Reagan: There is good news and bad new in the Creation versus Evolution debate. The good news is that Dr. Anthony Flew of England one of the world’s leading Atheist recently announced that he now believe in Intelligent Design rather than Evolution. The bad news is that more and more evangelical church leaders seem to be endorsing the viewpoint of Dr. Hugh Ross who rejects a literal interpretation of the Genesis story of Creation. For details about these developments stay tuned.
Dr. Reagan: Greetings in the name of Jesus our blessed hope and welcome to Christ in Prophecy. Once again this week for the third week in a row we are going to focus on the Creation versus Evolution debate. And once again I am pleased to have as my special guest Dr. Jobe Martin, Founder and Director of Biblical Discipleship Ministries, in Rockwall, Texas. Dr. Martin, welcome back. It is good to be back Dr. Reagan. As we say in Texas you have blessed my socks off in these last two programs and I am really looking forward to this one.
Dr. Martin: Well praise God you have socks.
Dr. Reagan: Okay, and Nathan we are glad to have you back too. This is Nathan Jones. Nathan is our Web Minister he is the fellow that is on that website 8 hours a day, corresponding with people literally all over the world. If you have any question about Bible prophecy you just go to our website and send them to Nathan. Send all of the really difficult ones to him, okay.
Nathan Jones: I will be happy to answer them.
Dr. Reagan: Okay. Well Dr. Martin the scientific world was recently shocked when one of its leading atheist spokesmen, Dr. Anthony Flew of England suddenly announced that he now believes in Intelligent Design rather then Evolution as the best explanation of the existence of the Universe. What was your response to that announcement?
Dr. Martin: Well first of all I don’t know Dr. Flew, but my response was there’s an honest scientist. He has looked at the evidence, the hard experimentally verifiable evidence and it is saying, look there is design here. And it doesn’t matter which area of science you look at there is design. And so he comes to the conclusion based on the science there is design. And so he hasn’t come to know like Jesus as his Savior as far as I know. And don’t even know if he believes in the God of the Bible. But he at least does now believe there is some kind of designer that has produced the design.
Dr. Reagan: It seems I am seeing more and more of this every time I look around, it seems like some Evolutionist is now saying well there had to be design. Maybe it was aliens who came from outer space and put life here, or whatever. But they are more and more moving towards design.
Dr. Martin: Well I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they lose their debates when they debate a Creationist. And then here come the Intelligent Design movement, the Discovery Institute and some of these people going on the campuses and they don’t talk about God at all they just talk about, here is my area of science there is design.
Dr. Reagan: Well you know it just seems to me like design is nothing in the world but common sense. Look at it this way, when you say that all that we see around here our human bodies and everything else just happened accidentally through Evolution to me it is equivalent to standing in front of Mt. Rushmore and saying, “Wow isn’t it amazing what you can accomplish through erosion.” Or looking at a Boeing 747 and saying, “Wow did you know that came about as a tornado blowing through a junkyard.” We would die laughing, we would mock it all day long. And yet we turn around and we say something as complicated as your body was just an accident.
Dr. Martin: Yes, it doesn’t make sense.
Dr. Reagan: It is common sense, design.
Dr. Martin: It is it is.
Dr. Reagan: And everything you look at has design. I mean what is anywhere that doesn’t have some kind of design. I have a wristwatch here, I can look at the wristwatch and I can tell you that somebody designed that.
Dr. Martin: I got one here too and it says Jesus. What time is it?
Nathan Jones: Even farther and deeper into design and how things are made is the coding that makes us up, the DNA. Now as scientist learn more and more about DNA is that changing the Evolution, Creation debate?
Dr. Martin: Well there are a couple of things going on. Number one DNA is language; it’s the language of the cell. Well what is language? It is words, it is symbols. Well where do they come from? From intelligence. And there is information, so one of the huge problems now is how does the information get into the DNA, because a lot of people thinks, well you can grab some information and stick it into a gene and maybe take some information out of a gene, and now you have this. No, it is non-material, you can’t get a hold of information, it is there is no way. So you can’t like take some information and stick it into a gene. And you can’t take information out of a gene, which means, supernaturally the information had to be put in for each life form when the life form was created. And so now it has been breaking down, but I usually say on the campuses, “Okay DNA is language, language requires intelligence.” Nobody disagrees. DNA is language, nobody disagrees it is the language of the cell. Therefore DNA had an intelligent cause, and it usually goes silent. DNA tells you fingernails to go on top, if they came up under you would slip off everything. DNA tells your nose to go on with the holes down, if the holes are up and you are in the shower your in a problem, you see. Yes, it is the language of the cell.
Nathan Jones: Now a lot of evolution is based on the idea that mutation changes one creature to another creature. So if you are saying then that DNA is infusion of, it is information, then mutation would mean that new information would have to be added to create a new creature and that doesn’t happen.
Dr. Martin: Exactly, right. There is no way to put new information into any gene. Which means bacteria have information in their genes for bacteria, a bacteria will never become people over millions of years, because someone would have to add information to that bacteria gene set to get to people would have different genes, different information in the genes. There is no way to do that. That fact alone wipes out this whole idea of evolution over millions of years.
Dr. Reagan: I have heard people say well our DNA, human, is so similar to the DNA of say an ape, that there must be some relationship between the two.
Dr. Martin: Yes well, what do we have? We have a common Designer, a common God, we got a common food chain, we live in a common atmosphere, and God put together something in the genetic makeup of animals. It works, it works. But when they say, like a professor over here a SMU said, there is only one amino acid difference between a chimpanzee and a man. And I just say to him, okay, next time you need a blood transfusion, we’ll just bring in a chimpanzee, you’ll be fine, there is only one amino. No, no there not going to do that, it will kill him. There are huge differences, yes, so.
Dr. Reagan: I tell you, you know General Santa Ana of the Mexican forces was called the General No Quarter. He gave no quarter. I think you deserve that title, you give no quarter. I mean you really go after these guys.
Dr. Martin: Well some of these guys I mean you have to, in love, but firmly you just have to.
Nathan Jones: Well when they say, that okay DNA we know how complex it is. But then you always hear owe a simple cell, one celled organism. Is a one cell organism as simple as it says?
Dr. Martin: Well first of all Darwin didn’t have a clue what was going on inside the cell. That’s true. But now we know, in my lifetime we found all these things going on. A cell is like it can do a million reactions per second, 3,000 to 6,000 little chemical factories making exactly the right chemicals in exactly the right concentrations and the right relationships. I mean that is going on in our cells right now. And we don’t blow up. Yeah, there is no way.
Dr. Reagan: Welcome back to our interview of Dr. Jobe Martin, he is the Founder of Biblical Discipleship Ministries, located in Rockwall, Texas. And he is an expert on the Evolution versus Creation debate. Nathan, how about you starting off this round with the first question. Certainly.
Nathan Jones: Well I was watching Sesame Street with my kids and the little red monster Elmo he comes out and he is teaching the kids on dinosaurs, and he says, “Dinosaurs lived millions of years ago.” Is Elmo right?
Dr. Martin: Well, what does the Bible say? We go back to the Bible. What does it say? Well God created Adam on day six. But that’s also the day He created the great beast of the Earth. Well I think that would include dinosaurs. So that would mean that we have dinosaurs going all the way back to the beginning when man was here, which is 6,000 years, not millions of years. And then we have pictures of dinosaurs like in our Grand Canyon, there is dinosaurs sketched on the rocks that the Indians did. And they have done some oxidation tests–
Dr. Reagan: Well wait a minute I thought they were supposed to exist long before man?
Dr. Martin: Well that’s the problem. If they did, if dinosaurs existed, well what do they say, they went extinct about 60 million years before human ever walked the Earth.
Dr. Reagan: Right.
Dr. Martin: Well then how could a human paint a picture of a dinosaur if they never seen a dinosaur? And then you have those Ica Stones down there in Peru they have thousands of them with every kind of dinosaur you can think of, which means, maybe as short a time ago as a thousand years, they were seeing dinosaurs of, like triceratops, and stegosaurus, like those things, in Peru.
Nathan Jones: That would explain then why ever civilization has some kind of dragon story. Even though those civilizations grew up totally separate.
Dr. Martin: I think you are right, and they do they have dragon stories, dragon legends. What is a dragon? Probably a dinosaur, I mean I think the Bible talks about dinosaurs. Yes, tell us about that, are they mentioned in the book of Job? Yes, Job 40:15, talks about behemoth or behemoth it is a Hebrew intensive nome, one huge creature. And one thing that it says is it has a tail like a cedar. Well the footnotes in almost every Bible will say well it’s got to be an elephant or a hippopotamus. Well you get around behind an elephant and is that a cedar tree?
Nathan Jones: A little thing.
Dr. Reagan: I have never seen a tail like a trunk.
Dr. Martin: Or a hippopotamus what is that? You know a cedar tree? No. So I guess even the people that do the footnotes in the Bibles think, dinosaurs and humans did not live at the same time. So they’ve got to think up some other way to put a meaning on that word.
Nathan Jones: Well there have been tracks found right with human footprints inside dinosaur footprints in the clay.
Dr. Martin: Several places on Earth, yes. In what is called cretaceous rock strata that is dinosaur rock, yes, human footprints, dinosaur footprints. Right here in Texas we had, twenty some years ago we had our feet in human footprints in the cretaceous rock strata. And then the park service apparently eliminated those human like footprints.
Nathan Jones: Really.
Dr. Martin: Yeah, they are not there anymore. The dinosaur footprints are still there.
Nathan Jones: Have any samples been removed for safety?
Dr. Martin: There are some that have been taken out a long time ago and they.
Nathan Jones: The parks are willfully destroying evidence of Creation?
Dr. Martin: Well, as far as I can tell they are. If you would damage one of the dinosaur footprints you would go to jail.
Dr. Reagan: Oh yeah.
Dr. Martin: But you can damage the human footprints, because humans and dinosaurs couldn’t have existed together so they can’t be human footprints. So but they look like human footprints, so we’ll just kind of destroy them because that is going to confuse people. They are going to think well maybe humans and dinosaurs did exist together with these kinds of footprints.
Dr. Reagan: Nathan you get questions from time to time, I know I do, about the Ark. How did Noah get dinosaurs on the Ark?
Nathan Jones: Yeah how do you fit a giant brachiosaurus into an Ark without sinking it?
Dr. Martin: Yes well, first of all that was one huge ship. It wasn’t like you see in Sunday School literature, this little boat with giraffes sticking out the top, okay.
Nathan Jones: And a monkey on the bow.
Dr. Martin: That is exactly it. And I would imagine that God brought young dinosaurs. The biggest dinosaur egg as far as I know is about the size of a football, that mean the hugest dinosaur could at one point fit in a football.
Nathan Jones: Wow.
Dr. Martin: So God could have brought young dinosaurs, they would live longer, wouldn’t eat as much, things like that.
Dr. Reagan: What about their disappearance?
Dr. Martin: Well I think probably the Flood took care of most of the big ones. Now we know, I think God brought dinosaurs to Noah, I think there were dinosaurs on the Ark. But now they come out a different kind of environment. Before the Flood I think we had pole to pole green house warm. Everything is still eating green plants, Genesis 1:29-30, “To every beast of the Earth I have given every green plant.” A dinosaur is a beast, lived on the Earth, included with every. So they are still eating green plants which is the food that Noah would have had on the Ark. Then they come out of the Ark, this water canopy has come down, now we have the harsh seasons, ice, snow, the ice age formed. And there is not as much to eat and God also put enmity between man and beast, Genesis 9. So now He says to Noah, “Noah you were living with the t-rex on the Ark and he didn’t try to eat you, you were still friends. But now Noah he is going to try to catch you and eat you. And you need to catch him and eat him.”
Nathan Jones: Yeah handle a bunch of velocorapters running around you backyard trying to kill them, right?
Dr. Martin: Yeah. So I think that all of these animals, I don’t think dinosaurs are extinct, I think there could still be some dinosaurs around.
Nathan Jones: In 1925 they pulled out a plesiosaurus called California Nessie, and then just about 10 years ago I saw a picture, a Japanese fishing boat, didn’t they haul up a dead plesiosaurus? It would be one of those water dinosaurs.
Dr. Martin: Well it sure looks like that. Some people say, no that was a basking shark, but it sure does look like it.
Nathan Jones: With a neck that long?
Dr. Martin: Yeah, right that is what I am saying.
Dr. Reagan: Well let me ask you another question related to that, and that is the caveman, the Neanderthal.
Dr. Martin: Yes. Well what about him? Well first of all they were either men or they were monkeys or apes or orangutan. There’s not a single undisputed fossil that people say this is kind of one of the missing links. And Neanderthal, Donald Johanson the guy that found Lucy the little 3 ½ foot tall Australopithecine he said about Neanderthal, “Put him in a suit, put him in a subway in England, give him a handful of coins with one token he will pull out the token, put it in there and get on the subway and you would never know he wasn’t common European man.”
Dr. Reagan: That is interesting because it seems to me like most of the time they find a tooth and from that tooth they draw this picture of what it was looking like, and it always is some guy humped over and ape like looking, and so forth.
Dr. Martin: Yeah well you know I think that the Flintstones brought all of this together, okay. You have dinosaurs you have man they are all living together. The men look a little primitive, the dinosaurs look, so all you have to do is watch the Flintstones, you will get the truth about all of this.
Dr. Reagan: Alright, well. So you are denying that there was any kind of pre-human species that was we would call a Neanderthal or something of that nature.
Dr. Martin: Exactly and that’s the way they are looked at, like they are pre-human.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Dr. Martin: Well then you are working up to Adam, but at Adam starts death at the Curse and at the Fall. So you can’t have that. By the way Job talks about that Job 30, he says, “There are people that are living in caves that are casts off of society.” And I think that is what caveman was, he was a cast off of society.
Dr. Reagan: That is the way that is probably the way they handled people like we would send them to a penitentiary.
Dr. Martin: Sure, that could well be, yeah Job 30 talks about them.
Dr. Reagan: Dr. Martin I have one last question for you and it has to do with something rather unfortunate and that a lot of leading evangelical spokesmen have recently endorsed the views of Dr. Hugh Ross, who believes in an ancient Earth, an Earth of millions or billions years of age. What do you think of Dr. Ross’ viewpoint and why do you think it is picking up so many endorsements in the evangelical community?
Dr. Martin: Well as far as his Christianity let’s say, his faith in Jesus, I have no way to evaluate that. I can evaluate what he says about billions of year, and a local flood in the days of Noah. That’s not Biblical. He says the flood was contained in the Mesopotamian Valley. Now he is kind of tricky, because he said it was a universal flood. So if you just read him kind of casually you would think owe he believes in the global flood. No universal was universal to the people that lived in the Mesopotamia Valley. Then if that is true, and it says the waters covered the mountain tops by so many cubits, well then you would have a wall of water going up, with Noah up here, and look out Noah you are going to go off the edge, water would go over the top. Now God can separate water like that, He did with the Red Sea, did it with the Jordan. But the evidence in the Bible, all the high hills, of all the mountains were covered. All the dry land animals were killed in the Flood, and all the people other then the ones that were on the Ark.
Dr. Reagan: Why is he so anxious to deny the clear teaching of the Bible that it was a world wide flood?
Dr. Martin: Yes right.
Dr. Reagan: What is he trying to gain by that?
Dr. Martin: I think what is going on these people want to maintain their credibility with the scientific community. They want people to look at them and say, these are very bright people, because why, they buy into this whole concept of billions of years which means there has to be a local flood in the days of Noah, you can’t have a flood that covers the earth. And so I think they love the approval of men, more then the approval of God.
Dr. Reagan: It seems to me that when you start taking about this Ancient Earth and you are an evangelical you run into a major theological problem that you have mentioned several times, I want you to develop it a little bit, that has to do with sin and death.
Dr. Martin: Well the fact is, for instance Hugh Ross as I understand it with the Progressive Creationist they believe there was a pre-Adamic race of people, but they didn’t have a soul or a spirit, and therefore you can’t say that there was death before Adam in the same sense that we say with Adam came death. But the fact is with Adam came the death of everything, everything that is a live dies.
Dr. Reagan: Yes.
Dr. Martin: Plants, animal, everything dies.
Dr. Reagan: Because God put the curse upon the creation.
Dr. Martin: Exactly right. And so, Romans 5:12, “By man came death.” “By Adam came death,” 1 Corinthians 15. And you can not have a pre-Adamic race of things, living and dying before death came on the Earth. Matter of fact, God says at the end of the first week, “Everything was very good.”
Dr. Reagan: That’s right.
Dr. Martin: Well if it is very good, and you have a whole history in the fossil record of dead things, some of which even had cancer in the bones in the fossils, they have cancer. When did cancer, when did sickness, disease come? After the curse, that’s part of the curse and part of the Fall. Matter of fact thorns and thistles, thorns and thistles are found in some of the very oldest rocks, sedimentary rocks. Well wait a minute, by Adams sin came thorns and thistles.
Dr. Reagan: That’s right.
Dr. Martin: So you can’t have all these things pre-dating Adam. But that is what God says, He made it all within a 6 day week that is made up with the same kind of days we work. Heaven, Earth, sea, and everything in them. So if we just go back to what the Bible says, there is no way to get these billions of years, and a local flood in the days of Noah.
Dr. Reagan: Plus there is absolutely no evidence in the Bible of a pre-Adamic race is there?
Dr. Martin: Zero. You have to read that into the Bible.
Dr. Martin: It is a product of the imagination. It is, it is.
Nathan Jones: To believe there is a local flood too you would have to ignore, isn’t there shells on top of Mt. Everest in a closed position? And human skeletons found on the top of mountains that have no where near, to do with that local flood area.
Dr. Martin: Yes, and what God’s tell us? During the flood He is heaving up mountains, dropping down ocean floors, He is rearranging the surface of the Earth. And when you find a clam that is in sedimentary rock and it is closed that means it was trapped when it was alive, because if they die the muscle relaxes and it opens. So if it was just dead things that got washed in, okay open clam shells no problems. But when they have millions of these that are closed that means they were caught, they were caught quickly, they were trapped, that sounds like a rapidly developing flood. Which I think the Flood of Noah’s day was, rapidly developing.
Nathan Jones: And to have water coming out of a canopy straight down, that would also explain why all those mammoths are flashed frozen eating all over the planet, right?
Dr. Martin: Well there is water coming down, there is water coming up, said the fountains of the deep broke up and up they come. And there are things on Earth that are difficult to describe and understand. For instance like some of the frozen woolly mammoths exactly right. They are quick frozen, and how can that be, unless something was happening just very rapidly, and it was. And I think after the Flood that is when the Ice Age came, which would have opened land bridges in between all of the continents.
Dr. Reagan: That is right.
Dr. Martin: Because the ice would be taken out of the Ocean and it goes up warm water there right after the flood from the fountains of the deep, maybe volcanoes. The oceans are warmer, more water evaporates at the equator comes up over the poles, comes down we have the ice age, come down water out of the ocean, now the ocean is more shallow, now there are land bridges. Then as the ocean cools down, land bridges move back, water comes up and now they’re trapped, here, here, here.
Nathan Jones: Interesting.
Dr. Martin: Yeah.
Nathan Jones: I’ve got one more question, I am sorry. But as a parent I have little kids and they are being taught Evolution in school. What can I do about that?
Dr. Martin: Well I think that comes down to discipleship, we need to teach our children what the Bible says, teach them how to defend the faith. 1 Peter 3:15, we are to sanctify Christ as Lord in our hearts, we are to ready to give an answer to everyone who asks us of this hope we have. And so we teach them what the Bible says and then we have to critique things. If they see something about a dinosaur on television we have to be able to say, “Now wait a minute we know because God says dinosaurs and humans lived together we know what is true, and this is not true.” And so, and then you have to be involved with your kids. We have a lot of parents they are Christians but there not involved with their children they send them off to the school, they don’t know what is going on. We need to know what is going on with our children. And so we did home school and that was our answer to that.
Dr. Reagan: Nathan, why don’t you ask the last question for this session?
Nathan Jones: Sure, it sounds like you are a Young Earth Creationist so that means you believe in a 6,000 years of human history. Where in the world do you get 6,000 years from?
Dr. Martin: Well good question. Basically from the genealogical tables in the Bible, and what do they show? Well right about 6,000 years that is all you can get. And people say, “Well aren’t there huge gaps there? Couldn’t there be millions of years of gaps in the genealogical tables?” Well, no, matter of fact Adam over laps Lamech, and they are all one family. Adam probably said to Lamech, “Lamech, great-great-great-great-great- grandson get in my lap, I never should have eaten of that fruit.” And then Lamech is Shem’s grand-daddy and Shem comes through the Flood and Shem overlaps Abraham by about 50 years, so there are not these huge millions of years, and even if there were that doesn’t help with Evolution. Why? Because people are already here, and what does the Evolutionist say? People were the last thing to evolve. And so anyway you look at it, even if there were million so years it would not help with Evolution. So, 6,000 years that is about all we can get, if we just take the Bible. Why did God gives us those tables and tell us this one was this old.
Dr. Reagan: In such detail.
Dr. Martin: Exactly.
Dr. Reagan: Such detail.
Nathan Jones: There is a prophet meaning to those 6,000 years, right.
Dr. Reagan: Well could be, yes, let’s not get into that though, because we don’t have time. Dr. Martin why don’t you just tell our viewers for a moment how they can get in touch with your ministry. Probably the best way to get in touch with us is our web pages, we have two, one is called biblicaldiscipleship.org, and the other one is evolutionofacreationist.com. Well, Dr. Martin when we first started off this series we were going to have you for three weeks, but we just, Nathan and I have enjoyed it so much and I know our viewers have. We want to invite you back for one more week.
Dr. Martin: I’ll be coming.
Dr. Reagan: Okay, great. Alright, well folks that is our program for this week, and next week we will conclude this series by talking to Dr. Martin about one of his favorite subjects and that is incredible creatures that defy evolution. I know that it will be a program that you and your children will find absolutely fascinating. Until then this is Dave Reagan speaking for Lamb and Lion Ministries, saying, “Look up, be watchful, for our redemption is drawing near.”
End of Program